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Old 02/23/2020, 01:38 AM   #1
ReefSultan
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Orchid dottyback Fridmani Breeding

Hi All,

I have a SPS dominated reef tank 18 months old and know I want jump into next step in hobby and try some breeding at home






I have breeding Orchid dottyback
Actually I have seen this couple laying eggs by accident as my rock aqua space has so much caves one day by luck I see some eggs.

Anyway, I read what I can find from internet to learn what is breeding setup and how to feed etc (trust me not much information around)

Now I have in hand phtyo and rotifer. I have egg thumbler rearing tank and grownup tanks (empty now)





Below is a egg tumbler for mainly used Cichilid egg I hope it will work to thumble Orchid dottyback eggs too



From below picture you can see I put a pvc pipe and a tap behind with a small hole and other end completely open. Breeder couple hangout inside it but they spawn again in cave. But this time a bit deeper inside which will make things complicated. I am not sure how to suck the eggs to thimbles without fail. I will use big hose in first try however big hose will have big air sucky job power and eggs would be defected. We will try and see





Here red mark shows the cave where eggs laid



Here is the eggs batch #1 spawned 22.02.2020 probably between 14:00-16:00 and photo from next day 23.02.2020 11:00 am





I read lots of posts male is not experienced enough catering Eggs and they eat eggs day 2-3. This is what I observe in last batch which I did try to pull out as my setup was not ready.I am planing to observe and if I see egg count getting less I would try to take eggs and if successful would first try if tumbling till hatch day. (4th day)

If I need to remove the egg ball I am not sure if I need to run tumbler in main tank or rearing tank.

There are lots of question marks about how to handle all these but all suggestions very welcome








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Old 02/23/2020, 02:07 AM   #2
ThRoewer
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When I was trying to raise fridmanis in the 90s I used a separating funnel as a tumbler. Though I cut the top off slightly above where it is the widest. And I actually pumped water through it to keep the egg ball afloat and not air. Though that requires a bit more complicated setup.
See how long it takes for the eggs from spawn to hatch. Once you have that it is best to steal the eggs the evening before the hatch.
Success in rectangular tanks will be less likely. I would suggest an octagon on the side to get a flow that is more like in a planktonkreisel as it is used to keep jellyfish.
You will also need something better than rotifers and brine shrimp to be successful.

I got them no further than 3 weeks. I'm sure the failure at that point was due to the one-sided brine shrimp diet.

BTW, there is a book out about breeding these guys though it isn't particularly helpful on the feeding procedure as Moe (the author) used primarily wild-collected plankton (one of the perks of living in coastal Florida).


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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 02/23/2020, 02:24 AM   #3
ReefSultan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThRoewer View Post
When I was trying to raise fridmanis in the 90s I used a separating funnel as a tumbler. Though I cut the top off slightly above where it is the widest. And I actually pumped water through it to keep the egg ball afloat and not air. Though that requires a bit more complicated setup.

See how long it takes for the eggs from spawn to hatch. Once you have that it is best to steal the eggs the evening before the hatch.

Success in rectangular tanks will be less likely. I would suggest an octagon on the side to get a flow that is more like in a planktonkreisel as it is used to keep jellyfish.

You will also need something better than rotifers and brine shrimp to be successful.



I got them no further than 3 weeks. I'm sure the failure at that point was due to the one-sided brine shrimp diet.



BTW, there is a book out about breeding these guys though it isn't particularly helpful on the feeding procedure as Moe (the author) used primarily wild-collected plankton (one of the perks of living in coastal Florida).


Thanks for your reply and great suggestions.
Do you remember if you used enriched BS as well ? I read lots of people they max grow till 20 days..it sounds like diet you are correct one of my friend also tried enriched BS but that didn’t worked as well..

I think I choose difficult species to try breeding but that’s what I have now in my hand

Cheers


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Old 02/23/2020, 02:32 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefSultan View Post
Thanks for your reply and great suggestions.
Do you remember if you used enriched BS as well ? I read lots of people they max grow till 20 days..it sounds like diet you are correct one of my friend also tried enriched BS but that didn’t worked as well..

I think I choose difficult species to try breeding but that’s what I have now in my hand

Cheers


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I didn't enrich the brine shrimp nor the rotifers. That should definitely help.
Today I would also focus more on copepods like Tisbe and Tgriopus as food for the larger larva.

While I wasn't successful in raising the fridmani I managed to raise a number of Marine Bettas. But that was before the brine shrimp egg quality from the Great Salt Lake took a nose-dive in the early 90s.


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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 02/23/2020, 02:42 AM   #5
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BTW, this is the kind of tank design I would use as larva tank:





(from https://www.semanticscholar.org/pape...648a5c7ead568a

You want to keep the larva in motion and give them the impression they can swim a continuous straight line without hitting a wall or getting stuck in a corner. Jellyfish tanks like the above are well suited for most marine fish and shrimp larva.


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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 02/23/2020, 04:43 AM   #6
ReefSultan
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Great Idea to reduce risks you right. However not easy to convert current tank in home environment.

How they manage not to suck larva’s , I saw the figure 8 but difficult to understand...

Btw, we need to make sure biggest problem is rectangle tank or other conditions. If it is reducing survival rate %10 not Critical for me.. really need to attack the highest risks first




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Old 02/24/2020, 12:10 AM   #7
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Batch #1 ...2 days later spawn

Egg ball seems little then first day to my eye but can be sure..

24.02.2020 10:00 am





If I see it get less dense probably I will try to take egg ball and run first tumbling experience tonight




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Old 02/24/2020, 12:37 AM   #8
ThRoewer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefSultan View Post
Great Idea to reduce risks you right. However not easy to convert current tank in home environment.

How they manage not to suck larva’s , I saw the figure 8 but difficult to understand...

Btw, we need to make sure biggest problem is rectangle tank or other conditions. If it is reducing survival rate %10 not Critical for me.. really need to attack the highest risks first
I can assure you that flow is one of the biggest issues. Most reef fish larvae want to swim against the flow and should ideally not touch the ground or the walls (could cause infections or physical damage). Without a continuous flow design, the larvae get easily trapped in the corners of the tank and either starve there or catch infections due to excessive ground contact.
A rectangular tank can actually quite easily modified in the shown form. If the bent plastic sheets are too tricky you can also use flat glass to "round" the corners. I would also create a pump chamber on one end of the tank.
A screen of the right mesh-size, glued on a plastic frame can keep the larvae from being sucked into the pump chamber. I had tanks like that in the past and it worked great.
BTW, the light source is also not without influence. To find what works best you may need to experiment a little.


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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 02/24/2020, 11:57 PM   #9
ReefSultan
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Batch#1 4th day arter spawn

Today should be hatch day

I decided to use BRT for larval setup till I setup
Suggested tanks in above posts

Will be my first experience to pull the egg ball
Unfortunately rotifer culture I bought locally has very low density I ordered new from another city which would reach me tomorrow

I will try document egg ball removal from Den, tumbling process and if I can hatch eggs I will document larval tank

I will add additional 2 pvc pipes 25mm diameter to let them lay eggs as alternative

Fingers crossed

This morning egg ball




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Old 02/25/2020, 02:38 PM   #10
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Hi,

I was able to collect egg ball from that difficult cave and even it is day 3rd some egg hatched

Unfortunately density of rotifer is not enough however tomorrow morning I will have 1,5 liters of rotifer culture I will give half of it

I put green water and my low density rotifer

Waiting the rest of the eggs hatched





This is just after I put egg ball to tumbler they started hatching

https://youtu.be/EURJ2Is6Lbk


I transferred larva’s to rearing tank
Unfortunately BRT leaked water and all home in mess .. I used rectangle tank.. didn’t have time for heater I will try without heater this time as it has plus and minus



Babies in rearing tank

https://youtu.be/--z6E0trYIk

Left egg ball waiting hopefully to be hacted tomorrow in tumbler out of tank

https://youtu.be/nkkJYSYIA7s

This batch was really very amateur but lets see how it will go





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Old 02/29/2020, 12:22 AM   #11
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How are they doing?


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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 02/29/2020, 12:34 AM   #12
ReefSultan
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Hey tanks for follow up sir

All seems OK for now
I continue adding rotifer and keep water a bit tint with phyto

I can’t understand mortality ratio as I do it see dead larva. I only take one there are maybe 100 or more still leaving difficult to understand for sure

I worry about ammonia. I am planing to do some water changes on day 7 or maybe earlier? I can use rotifer sieve put it inside and suck water out

Hatch day 1 is now 5 days old and others 4 days old

I think I need to start trying BBS on day 7th
Difficult to take photos








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Old 02/29/2020, 01:05 AM   #13
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Btw, I am planing to introduce BBS on day 7 so I will start setup and hatching tomorrow evening

I will do 2 sets as day 10 I am planing to introduce enriched BBS that need to be hatched 9th and 12-24 hour enrichment

I hope this is correct protocol we will try and see


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Old 03/01/2020, 11:54 PM   #14
ReefSultan
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6 th dph

Things not going perfect

I can’t see so many larva like before very limited like 20 max..same as yesterday

I did water change and measure salinity
I didn’t top off tank and salinity was 1.031 I did water change with water from my main tank and reduced 1.026 yesterday
Btw bubbles were staying on the surface and thought this is sign of high ammonia

Maybe salinity change increased deaths
I am not sure about larval tank parameters

Most bad news is! This is second day of new spawn and couple breed in some other
Place in tank which I could not find yet..male sleeps in a rock which last breed egg ball
Placed he still sleep there but no egg ball. He mostly in one of the pvc pipes I put in but no eggs there also..now I have big problem to find this place but I guess where it is as male go always this new place

Also larval tank rotifer density is really high (for me) as I put it it water it get clears pretty fast I am not going to add phyto till reduce the rotifer population as I worry about Oxygen in tank also even I have mid level air in tank with air stone

Here is the rotifer population in larval tank

https://youtu.be/uwev2EUyuvw

In summary salinity swing.maybe too much light, too much air or low developed frys end up with high mortality







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Old 03/16/2020, 10:45 AM   #15
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You really need to know what your ammonia level is at. It is critical when raising fry. The small ammonia badges are in expensive and work well. https://smile.amazon.com/Seachem-001...0&ie=UTF8&th=1
Stable salinity would also be very important I believe for fry as fish have to use energy to remove excess salt from their bodies.
Your off to a pretty good start. Good luck going forward!


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