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Old 04/14/2008, 10:52 AM   #51
hyperfocal
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12V AC? Are you sure?

I assumed they'd follow the same model as Tunze, and use a PWM scheme to alternate the duty cycle on a DC waveform. Tunze allows the voltage level to be set on the power brick (12v to 24v), thereby controlling the maximum output on the pump.

That's how Tunze is able to keep the cost of their Singlecontroller down -- there are no expensive higher-power components in them, just the waveform generator and some glue logic. All of the power handling stuff is included with the pump.

Apparently, Koralia moved the power-supply components into their controller and drove up it's price. Sure, the pumps *look* inexpensive but their true cost is tied up in the controller. Really, the complete opposite of Tunze's business model, where the pumps look expensive, but the entry level controller is relatively inexpensive.

Don't make the mistake of comparing the Koralia controller to the $350 Tunze Multicontroller -- it's more along the lines of two Singlecontrollers (about $100 for a pair). The Tunze Multicontroller has many more features than the Koralia controller. Apples and oranges.


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Old 04/14/2008, 12:09 PM   #52
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This stinks though because I wanted these pumps to atleast be aquasurf compatible, but it doesn't look like that it going to happen.


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Old 04/14/2008, 12:40 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by hyperfocal
12V AC? Are you sure?

I assumed they'd follow the same model as Tunze, and use a PWM scheme to alternate the duty cycle on a DC waveform. Tunze allows the voltage level to be set on the power brick (12v to 24v), thereby controlling the maximum output on the pump.

That's how Tunze is able to keep the cost of their Singlecontroller down -- there are no expensive higher-power components in them, just the waveform generator and some glue logic. All of the power handling stuff is included with the pump.

Apparently, Koralia moved the power-supply components into their controller and drove up it's price. Sure, the pumps *look* inexpensive but their true cost is tied up in the controller. Really, the complete opposite of Tunze's business model, where the pumps look expensive, but the entry level controller is relatively inexpensive.

Don't make the mistake of comparing the Koralia controller to the $350 Tunze Multicontroller -- it's more along the lines of two Singlecontrollers (about $100 for a pair). The Tunze Multicontroller has many more features than the Koralia controller. Apples and oranges.
I have a decent knowledge of some areas of electrical engineering, but motors and control methods are not within what I'd consider my area of expertise. However, I thought that PWM was typically used to essentially simulate an AC waveform without having to actually create a sinusoidal wave. So, any electrical motor that runs on a PWM signal should also run on sinusoidal AC, and vice versa. I fed the Koralia pump a 12V DC signal and just got a brief click, as if it was making a partial turn. I then fed it a 12V AC signal, and it worked just fine.

My previous statement that the Tunze controller and Koralia pump wouldn't work together was based on the assumption that the Tunze uses a plain DC signal. I haven't yet received the Tunze controller I was going to hook up to the Koralia pump, so maybe it will work if it uses PWM. However, based on the relative prices of their controllers and pumps, I'm inclined to think that maybe the controller does put out a plain DC signal that controls electronics inside their pumps that convert the DC input into a PWM signal that drives the motor.

Regardless, the 12V AC signal seems to drive the pump just fine, so I'm planning to build a variable frequency controller to run the Koralia. The design I've put together would just switch between two frequencies (i.e. two speeds) at controllable intervals. It certainly doesn't have as many options as the Tunze or Hydor controllers, but it's enough to create alternating flow patterns, which is all I really want.


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Old 04/14/2008, 01:10 PM   #54
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Sounds cool. Are you alternating between full and half wave rectification of a 60 Hz AC signal, or doing something fancier?


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Old 04/14/2008, 01:25 PM   #55
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Will older model pumps work with this controller or do you have to buy the new pumps with the controller?


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Old 04/14/2008, 01:41 PM   #56
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It will be powered by a 24V DC power supply. A 555 timer with single-rotation pots controlling the durations of high and low speed controls a DPDT relay. That relay switches between two resistor values on a Wien bridge oscillator built around a high-current-output op-amp. Modifying it to control more powerheads would just require replication of the circuit if you want them independently controlled, or simply hooking up another outlet to the end of the circuit if you want them synchronized.


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Old 04/14/2008, 01:42 PM   #57
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New pumps, the older ones can be controlled by using the Seio controller. Which is what I am going to do.


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Old 04/14/2008, 03:48 PM   #58
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dam that sucks so I guess there are going to be alot of the older model pumps for sale on the selling forum soon,


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Old 04/14/2008, 03:57 PM   #59
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can the koralia 4 work on 3/4 inch acrylic? The vortech has problems with acrylic and overheating and causing it to crak, any one using these on 3/4"


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Old 04/14/2008, 04:46 PM   #60
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Might as well get a Reefkeeper II and a bunch of maxijets with mods. Will be a lot cheaper, can run three pumps and also have the functionality of the controller.


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Old 04/14/2008, 04:49 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by k9asia
can the koralia 4 work on 3/4 inch acrylic? The vortech has problems with acrylic and overheating and causing it to crak, any one using these on 3/4"
I don't have any personal experience with this problem, but I'd think the Koralia would be less of an issue. The Vortech consumes more power at a max of 40W (i.e. generates more heat) and also, from what I understand, essentially has the motor pressed right up against the glass/acrylic. The Koralia 4, on the other hand, pulls a maximum of 13W and the motor is a few inches away from the glass with water constantly flowing around it.


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Old 04/14/2008, 08:15 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by k9asia
can the koralia 4 work on 3/4 inch acrylic? The vortech has problems with acrylic and overheating and causing it to crak, any one using these on 3/4"
Not sure if they will work or 3/4 glass but I am certain they work oh half inch glass.


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Old 04/14/2008, 08:47 PM   #63
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On 1/2 glass I remove the suction cups/rubber cover and just put the magnets against the glass to get a little more holding power(not sure your supposed to remove the suction cups though?


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Old 04/14/2008, 09:23 PM   #64
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Well, crap... I was getting excited about these working with the Aquasurf, too. Oh well.

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Old 04/14/2008, 09:39 PM   #65
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any one using them with 3/4 inch acrylic?


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Old 04/15/2008, 12:21 AM   #66
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Quote:
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any one using them with 3/4 inch acrylic?
3/4" acrylic, dang your tank must be huge.


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Old 04/15/2008, 07:00 AM   #67
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Smile

I had the #2's on my tank [long story] with 3/4'' glass. never moved at all.


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Old 04/15/2008, 07:55 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by xxxbadfishxxx
Might as well get a Reefkeeper II and a bunch of maxijets with mods. Will be a lot cheaper, can run three pumps and also have the functionality of the controller.
Yeah that was what I was going to do but the MJ Mods create sandstorms in my tank and are way too much flow for the LPS on the bottom of my tank.


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Old 04/15/2008, 09:21 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by k9asia
can the koralia 4 work on 3/4 inch acrylic? The vortech has problems with acrylic and overheating and causing it to crak, any one using these on 3/4"

that should not be a problem - I have two on 3/4" glass, with no issues. Been there a year and never fell.

I also have two mounted ot my overflows (with the back magnet inside the overflow)


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Old 04/15/2008, 01:17 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by k9asia
any one using them with 3/4 inch acrylic?
No, but they don't feel particularly secure on my 1/2" acrylic, so I'm not sure they'd do real well on 3/4. Wouldn't be the same issues as the vortech -- that's a heat transfer issue. It would be magnet strength issue. They aren't super strong like the tunzes -- at least, the first generation hydors that I have aren't.

EDIT -- I defer to the post right above mine. Probably shouldn't have even weighed in since I don't have personal experience.


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Old 04/15/2008, 01:31 PM   #71
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Lark

you have a point though

mine don't feel secure either, I had my doubts, but they seem to be doing fine. I guess between the suction cup and light weight magnet, it's enough. Mine are pointed pretty straight out so the force is directed back, if they were at a large angle it may be a totally different story.


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Old 04/15/2008, 02:03 PM   #72
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Take off both suction cups and theyll be fine.


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Old 04/15/2008, 02:19 PM   #73
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I have one of the new Koralia 4's on 5/8" glass and the suction cup actually seems to form an extremely strong grip--much more so than the old Koralia 3's I have. I went to remove it yesterday and I wasn't able to just pull it off; I had to stick my fingernail under the suction cup to release it. Of course, suction cups tend to stiffen/weaken with time, so I can't say how well it would hold in the long term.


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Old 04/15/2008, 02:47 PM   #74
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The vortech has problems with acrylic and overheating and causing it to crak, any one using these on 3/4"
I'd recommend that you check out the ecotech forum on RC. This information is not correct. I have a friend that is using vortechs on 3/4 acrylic without a problem.


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Old 04/15/2008, 03:12 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by renisel
It will be powered by a 24V DC power supply. A 555 timer with single-rotation pots controlling the durations of high and low speed controls a DPDT relay. That relay switches between two resistor values on a Wien bridge oscillator built around a high-current-output op-amp. Modifying it to control more powerheads would just require replication of the circuit if you want them independently controlled, or simply hooking up another outlet to the end of the circuit if you want them synchronized.
Cool. Couldn't you just invert the signal off the 555 and drive a second oscillator and amp off that? That way you'd get a nice push-pull without duplicating the digital side of your driver...


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