Live BlackWorms: Best Fish and LPS Food Ever?

[Big E]

Those red wigglers sound perfect for larger fish. They are thin & max out at about 1-3".

[jols]

This thread has made me look for blackworms.. but I couldn't find any being sold here (Philippines). Would bloodworms be a good replacement?

Has anyone ever tried bloodworms? I tried giving a pinch, but no fish seemed to eat it. I saw my PBT and bicolor anthias slurp a piece, only to spit them out a second later.

Thanks for any input.

[Paul B]

I have no knowlege of those red worms, they may be great.
If you feed blackworms, feed them after you feed something else. Many fish like the worms so much that they may refuse other types of food. I have had that problem a few times.
Fish like copperband and long nosed butterflies were designed to live on worms and that is what they should be fed.

[SDguy]

Originally Posted by jols

This thread has made me look for blackworms.. but I couldn't find any being sold here (Philippines). Would bloodworms be a good replacement?

Has anyone ever tried bloodworms? I tried giving a pinch, but no fish seemed to eat it. I saw my PBT and bicolor anthias slurp a piece, only to spit them out a second later.

Thanks for any input.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, "bloodworms" is a misnomer... they are not worms... they are insect larvae.

[jols]

Thanks SDGuy.
Upon further research, what I was sold as "bloodworms" may actually be blackworms.

Strange. I tried to give live, and frozen. Both have been snubbed completely by all my fishes and shrimp.

[Robka]

Originally Posted by Paul B

I have no knowlege of those red worms, they may be great.
If you feed blackworms, feed them after you feed something else. Many fish like the worms so much that they may refuse other types of food. I have had that problem a few times.
Fish like copperband and long nosed butterflies were designed to live on worms and that is what they should be fed.

Paul thanks again for all your input. It sounds like these red wigglers could possible be a great nutrition source and since my worm farm is completely organic, I shouldn't have any issues with pesticides possible being consumed by the worms. What a great "Green" circle of life this can be; Worm poop fertilizes my garden --> I eat healthy food --> organic food waste get composted in the worm farm --> worms feed on organic waste --> worms multiply & are fed to my fish

Thanks again,

Robka

[SDguy]

Not sure I remember HS biology, but don't earthworms, at least some larger ones, eat by swallowing dirt, and taking what they need from the dirt? I'm not sure feeding marine fish worms filled with dirt would be ideal.

[Paul B]

They do take food from dirt but if it's clean dirt, it is no problem. But I did say to hold them up to a faucet (hear first) and while squeezing them fro top to bottom, the dirt comes out.
Fish don't need a sterile diet.
Clams filter anything from water to eat.

[SDguy]

Originally Posted by Paul B

They do take food from dirt but if it's clean dirt, it is no problem. But I did say to hold them up to a faucet (hear first) and while squeezing them fro top to bottom, the dirt comes out.

My bad, I misses those lovely instructions

[Stuart60611]

Originally Posted by Paul B

They do take food from dirt but if it's clean dirt, it is no problem. But I did say to hold them up to a faucet (hear first) and while squeezing them fro top to bottom, the dirt comes out.
Fish don't need a sterile diet.
Clams filter anything from water to eat.

Plus, if you use a worm farm kit, like the one I posted on the earlier pages of this thread, then you should not have this problem. The earthworm breeding kits do not use dirt, but worm beding to keep the worms.

[Robka]

Originally Posted by Stuart60611

Plus, if you use a worm farm kit, like the one I posted on the earlier pages of this thread, then you should not have this problem. The earthworm breeding kits do not use dirt, but worm beding to keep the worms.

My worm farm started with the bedding and then grew with organic waste. All the food waste i put into the worm compost farm is organic and thus these red wigglers are healthy & reproduce fast (doubling their #'s every two months)

[Robka]

just finished the first intro of red wigglers 2 my tank and it was a great success All the fish ate them as soon as they hit the water. I can now say that my wife, dogs, and fish all eat organic food

[deutsche20V]

Hey guys I don't have much experience with blackworms, just fed them a couple times in the past to my FW fish for some variety, but I know several people were interested in the nutritional value they provide. Here's a chart originally posted by beblondie on monsterfishkeepers...



I don't know where she obtained it, but she was a respected authority and I have no reason to doubt its accuracy. Just thought it was worth posting

[Tracey2]

I have one of those large water coolers in my kitchen with a fridge in the bottom that holds my bucket of black worms, works great and my copperband begs everytime she sees me now.

[Matt_Wandell]

Originally Posted by deutsche20V

Hey guys I don't have much experience with blackworms, just fed them a couple times in the past to my FW fish for some variety, but I know several people were interested in the nutritional value they provide. Here's a chart originally posted by beblondie on monsterfishkeepers...

That chart (assuming it's accurate) does indicate one important thing--blackworms have a LOT of fat in them, an order of magnitude more fat than things like shrimp/clam/squid/krill. They have fat content closer to what you would see in a goldfish, and we know how well marine fish do on those if fed long term. You can compare it with the fat content of some other foods here:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...004/invert.htm

I don't think this means that blackworms are not a valuable part of a varied and well balanced diet, but they should not become a staple food IMHO.

[Matt_Wandell]

This looks like an informative study if anyone has access to it:
"Aquatic worms grown on biosolids: Biomass composition and potential applications"
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...9&searchtype=a

[Big E]

That chart (assuming it's accurate) does indicate one important thing--blackworms have a LOT of fat in them, an order of magnitude more fat than things like shrimp/clam/squid/krill.

Yeah, I mentioned fat content in worms earlier & that's why I'm not a big advocate of using worms that often. I think they're great for new fish that won't eat.........your packing a load of protein into a small package short term till you get them eating more proper foods. The fat isn't going to matter for that short period of time. They'd also be good for sick fish that haven't eaten in a while or fish that are woefully thin.

I think they have merit for conditioning breeders, again, short term.

I'd also be more apt to feed the worms to Butterfly fish on a more regular basis as marine worms are part of their natural diet.

I'm intrigued on what affect they would have on LPS corals as far as accelerating growth.

[Paul B]

Interesting chart. Thank you for posting it. What it does not tell you is the types of fat.
Worms and fish, including goldfish have no solid fat, only oil, and all oils are not the same. The fat in a mouse is not suitable for a fish food nor is the oil in a goldfish suitable for a salt water fish.
We know even in us humans all fats are not the same. Salt water fish oil is good for our hearts, brains and overall immune system health. (I take it every day) Mammal fat like we would get from cows, pigs and mice for anyone who would like to eat one is not good for us.
Fish should not eat any solid fats from land animals because at the temperatures that our fish live, that fat remains solid and can not be dijested. Fish are cold blooded and those fats remain solid at the 78 degrees (aprox) that our fish have for an internal temperature.
We can eat solid fats because our temp is 96 degrees and the fat melts. That is also why it can travel around in our blood and again solidify in our arteries.
Oil does not do that.
But worms have the type of oils that will keep both salt water and fresh water animals healthy.
It is a large part of my fishes diet and my fish normally live long enough to die from old age while spawning for many of those years. I am quite sure there is no longer study for worms as food than that.

[SDguy]

Originally Posted by Big E

I'd also be more apt to feed the worms to Butterfly fish on a more regular basis as marine worms are part of their natural diet.

This idea really interests me, and is really the main reason I feed LBW. So often I see CBB, for example (even ones that have been in captivity for "years") with sort of squared off bellies... I always though it looked strange, for their belleis to not be rounded and full looking. Maybe they aren't getting enough fat from shrimp, seeing as they are obviously designed to eat worms. Just throwing some thoughts out there...discuss

[Jacob D]

I don't know the about the rest of you but I'm suddenly craving some neonatal mouse for breakfast. mmmmmmm.....

[Paul B]

Jacob, you can have the mouse, but butterflies were designed to eat worms and if you dive with them you will see that.

How would you like that mouse? Sunny side up?

[Matt_Wandell]

Originally Posted by Big E

Yeah, I mentioned fat content in worms earlier & that's why I'm not a big advocate of using worms that often. I think they're great for new fish that won't eat.........your packing a load of protein into a small package short term till you get them eating more proper foods. The fat isn't going to matter for that short period of time. They'd also be good for sick fish that haven't eaten in a while or fish that are woefully thin.

I think they have merit for conditioning breeders, again, short term.

I'd also be more apt to feed the worms to Butterfly fish on a more regular basis as marine worms are part of their natural diet.

I'm intrigued on what affect they would have on LPS corals as far as accelerating growth.

Totally agreed. I almost posted "I'd be hard pressed to think of an item that reef fish eat that is so fatty" and then quickly realized what I said myself earlier--fish eggs. Some anthias eat as much as 50% of their diet in fish eggs. So for some fish these are likely entirely appropriate on a regular basis. For others, like say tangs or rabbitfish, not so much.

[Matt_Wandell]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Interesting chart. Thank you for posting it. What it does not tell you is the types of fat.
Worms and fish, including goldfish have no solid fat, only oil, and all oils are not the same. The fat in a mouse is not suitable for a fish food nor is the oil in a goldfish suitable for a salt water fish.
We know even in us humans all fats are not the same. Salt water fish oil is good for our hearts, brains and overall immune system health. (I take it every day) Mammal fat like we would get from cows, pigs and mice for anyone who would like to eat one is not good for us.
Fish should not eat any solid fats from land animals because at the temperatures that our fish live, that fat remains solid and can not be dijested. Fish are cold blooded and those fats remain solid at the 78 degrees (aprox) that our fish have for an internal temperature.
We can eat solid fats because our temp is 96 degrees and the fat melts. That is also why it can travel around in our blood and again solidify in our arteries.
Oil does not do that.
But worms have the type of oils that will keep both salt water and fresh water animals healthy.
It is a large part of my fishes diet and my fish normally live long enough to die from old age while spawning for many of those years. I am quite sure there is no longer study for worms as food than that.

Hi Paul,

Ever consider that, since you are culturing them yourself, your experience with the worms as food (and their nutritional and heavy metal content) may be very different from someone who buys them from a LFS and feeds them out "as is"?

[Big E]

This idea really interests me, and is really the main reason I feed LBW. So often I see CBB, for example (even ones that have been in captivity for "years") with sort of squared off bellies... I always though it looked strange, for their bellies to not be rounded and full looking. Maybe they aren't getting enough fat from shrimp, seeing as they are obviously designed to eat worms. Just throwing some thoughts out there...discuss

Could be........my Muelleri has a rounded belly & I feed raw frozen scallop, shrimp, & clam about 95% of the time for 7 years.

The thing I notice more is a butterfly can have a full round belly & body but over the years they get that slight concave look in the head above the eyes.........some sort of nutritional deficiency. I saw it in a couple of my semis. I fed them more of the commercial frozen foods like Formula 1 & 2 back then.

[SDguy]

Originally Posted by Big E

Could be........my Muelleri has a rounded belly & I feed raw frozen scallop, shrimp, & clam about 95% of the time for 7 years.

The thing I notice more is a butterfly can have a full round belly & body but over the years they get that slight concave look in the head above the eyes.........some sort of nutritional deficiency. I saw it in a couple of my semis. I fed them more of the commercial frozen foods like Formula 1 & 2 back then.

I think those go hand in hand... rounded belly...7 years Congrats!!

Yes, I've seen the pinched forehead on BF's before. Not sure if this is related, but I recently received a male clownfish with an EXTREMELY pinched forehead. This clown was in the care of an experienced breeder. The female showed no such signs. I've heard that clowns, once they get this, don't recover. I fed heavily, with large portions of LBW every day, and he recovered.

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