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Old 05/12/2020, 01:35 AM   #76
karimwassef
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Here's the volume calculations:

The reef is 4' + 2'9" deep ~ 6'9" and it's 8' x 16' so that's around 6500 gallons.
The surge tanks are 2' x 8' x 6' so that's around 700 gallons.
The surge fuge is 4' x 8' x 2.5' and that's 600 gallons. About 1'4" (of the 4') is actually "surge" @ 200 gallons and the fuge is the rest @ 400 gallons.
The sump volume is 5' x 20' x 4' and that's 3000 gallons.

The sump volume and the surge tank volumes will alternate, so I'm only counting the sump volume. The surge fuge though has a fuge portion at 400 gallons...

So the total actual volume is 6,500 gallons (reef) + 400 gallons (fuge) + 3,000 gallons (sump) = 9,900 gallons.

However - I'm hoping to minimize the actual water volume by limiting the sump to only about 2' deep when the surges are full. So that's 5' x 20' x 2' ~ 1500 gallons.
I'm also going to use limestone gravel covering the bottom 1' 3" so that reduces the actual water volume in the reef to 8' x 16' x 5' 6" ~ 5300 gallons.

So the water volume is 5,300 gallons (reef) + 600 gallons (surge fuge) + 700 gallons (surge tanks) + 1,500 gallons (sump) ~ 8,100 gallons.

Still massive... but I wanted to be clear since I decided to title the thread 10,000 gal pool reef.


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Old 05/12/2020, 02:02 AM   #77
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I guess I can't go back and annotate the walk through any more, so I'll just have to quote and add my notes:

Once the pool is proven in, the reef can start:

The plumbing goes in first:



The large white pipes are 4" overflow and drain (red is emergency) and the green pipes are 2" returns from the surge-fuge. There are also four yellow pipes 2" for vacuum and four white 2" for electrical and hydraulic connections... these are just conduits to avoid running wires over the pool edge.

Next come the walls - same construction as the pool but with windows cutout under the water level with glass panels.



So these concrete walls separate the freshwater in the pool from the salt water in the reef. They form the bottom 4' of the reef and sump. The back section is the sump and that's 5' x 20'. The reef is 8' x 16'.

and here's what it looks like with the greenhouse screening room:



This is really a temperature controlled shelter for winter use and to be more aesthetically appealing (HOA issues). It's bricked to match the house. There's one design element incomplete here which is how to make the roof removable and waterproof in the winter...

Now the big challenge with a "moat pool" around the "island reef" is how to get to it... so I added platforms that allow me to walk over the pool water. This is wood studs covered in acrylic to allow thermal heating of the pool water while also reducing evaporation in the winter.

The next big challenge is accessing the massive sump when there's no floor to walk on... so I added a suspended stud and plywood room immediately behind the reef and over the sump with half of the floor open for access... the access is both for me and the piping/wiring.

This box is 5'5" wide, 6' high and 8' long. It also acts as a frame to raise the surge-fuge. It's a little claustrophobic but I think I can manage it. The half floor can also be half removable to allow all access to the sump.





The sump has the large 4' diameter settling tank that feeds both sides of the sump. The sump also has access to the geothermal loops here. The pink conduits connect this area to the "pool shed" for power and RODI water.



Next.. the construction INSIDE the reef: I start with large perforated plastic sheeting over 2" tall rings of 2" PVC pipe. These are basically just spacers to keep the perforated plastic raised over the concrete floor. The plastic will be sitting under tons of limestone gravel so this basically creates a plenum layer under that massive mass. One of the surge returns will run into the plenum and flush it up periodically. There's cinderblocks on the plastic sheeting as well to allow the construction of the reef over it... the purpose will be clear in a bit.



Now, the limestone gravel is added to about 1' depth and it's very large open gravel ~ 3/4" to 1" in size. The idea is that there should be a lot of flow up through this volume when the surge outlet is opened:



The next layer of the reef is constructed with more cinderblock. There are steps on one side and stands on the back side. The overflow pipes are added now. The cinderblocks in the back will eventually hold up the massive vertical surge tanks:



Above this layer of cinderblocks is a plywood+epoxy resin platform for the shallow reef to sit on.

There will be two pairs of surge tanks - the rear surge tanks rest on the lower floor blocks and the front surge tanks rest of the upper floor blocks. That's the purpose of the cinderblock structure.

Also, the open forms are strong without creating obstruction to flow. They act as caves for fish as well.

Next, the overflow acrylic box is formed over the fake reef floor. This will establish the "low tide" level of the water on the reef.



There will be a hydraulic "lip" that will raise the water level to allow for high tide to low tide cycles.

That's it for today - I'll update more tomorrow hopefully.

Please share your ideas and feedback!


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Old 05/13/2020, 06:34 AM   #78
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Karim, is there a way to view the reef up close without standing in the pool? This seems like a downside to the current plan...but maybe I'm missing a detail.


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Old 05/13/2020, 04:25 PM   #79
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Yes. The walk on platforms act as a bridge between the pool edge and the reef edge concrete. They basically cover all the pool water so you walk up to the reef.

Also, the vertical surge tanks rise 6’ above water level and the fish can swim up into it. They’re basically inverted tanks so the tangs can graze on the scrubber growth.




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Old 05/13/2020, 04:44 PM   #80
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Also.. here's the yard - nice and sunny!






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Old 05/14/2020, 08:39 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
Yes. The walk on platforms act as a bridge between the pool edge and the reef edge concrete. They basically cover all the pool water so you walk up to the reef.

Also, the vertical surge tanks rise 6’ above water level and the fish can swim up into it. They’re basically inverted tanks so the tangs can graze on the scrubber growth.

So there's a hard cover on the pool that will support walking? And is the one guy in the actual reef? I assume he's in the water, right? The scrubbers are a cool idea. Will be fun to watch the tangs swim up into it.

What's the time frame for this construction... how long would it actually take to build? Any idea yet?


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Old 05/14/2020, 11:35 AM   #82
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Yes. It’s a solid floor supported by the concrete walls.
The deep reef is 5.5’ deep - so yes, that’s me inside the reef.

It’s also got 11’ of shallow reef length so snorkeling maybe?

I’m still waiting on permits and HOA... but I have most of the contractors lined up for phase 1... the pool (with reef hooks).

I would like to start testing the automation and surges by August. I will probably go without life this year so I can evaluate the winter weather impact on temperature with the geothermal and radiant heat solutions...


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Old 05/14/2020, 11:56 AM   #83
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The hard cover is 2x4s on 16” spacing on center. They’re probably epoxy coated. The panels are ~ 5’ x 4’.

There’s a 1/2” clear plastic sheet so it can act as a greenhouse in the winter. Since the openings are only 16” x 16” - the plastic should be able to hold up my weight. I should calculate the maximum load. Barefoot only use! No heels.


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Old 05/14/2020, 01:27 PM   #84
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Man I wish I Understood half the stuff you’re saying. Really interested in this and I think Snorkeling would be super cool.


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Old 05/15/2020, 07:29 AM   #85
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No life? Please put in a school of damsels at least! ��


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Old 05/15/2020, 10:22 AM   #86
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The saltwater for a pool that big is too much to waste on damsels.

I might put a freshwater fish to see how they weather the winter.


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Old 05/15/2020, 11:39 PM   #87
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The last 24 hours have been contentious as we get ready to spend some big $$$ on the pool and reef. Pool for her, Reef for me.

Some good changes, but also a lot of stress. It's mostly revolving around changes to make it so the structure doesn't diminish the value of the house.

I realize most people don't care about reefs or ponds or even pools for that matter but I invested a lot of time making it more appealing to the general John-Q-Public out there... and we're still not in agreement.


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Old 05/17/2020, 01:03 AM   #88
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Looks to be a very interesting project. In no way do I wish to offend you, but you asked for feed back. It seems way to complex to me. Keep it simple. Also will you be able to remove the reef components and walls when it comes time to sell the house? If you want it go for it.


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Old 05/17/2020, 03:14 PM   #89
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Have you seen this thread? http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2607925


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Old 05/17/2020, 05:26 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
The saltwater for a pool that big is too much to waste on damsels.

I might put a freshwater fish to see how they weather the winter.
I thought you were referencing the reef. You'll have no life in the reef for a year?


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Old 05/17/2020, 10:45 PM   #91
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Laverda - thanks for your feedback. I'm always happy to get it especially if it helps me make a more successful system in the end!

I've been accused of making the largest Rube Goldberg reef (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg) before...

If there's a simpler way to solve the problem, I'm very open to it. There are some engineering constraints that I can't overcome though... the city, the HOA, the wife!

That's actually why I listed my goal - here they are at the most fundamental basis:

Quote:
Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
1. Solar light to reduce cost of lighting
2. Geothermal to reduce cooling cost
3. Radiant heating coils to allow me to use existing gas heating
4. Peninsula to allow 3 sided view
5. Dropoff edge to create separate shallow and deep reefs
6. Deep cavern region for the fish to hide and sleep & encourage sponges.
7. Large shallow reef with side and top view
8. Underwater pool view
9. Thermal mass of the pool to control heat loss
10. Tides with a hydraulically controlled overflow
11. 4 massive channel surges that can immediately flow in circulating channel flow loops to each other
12. 100% surge-fuge return inside the rock to encourage soft structure plankton
13. Underground surge flush through limestone
14. Sand bottom and rock bottom
15. Year round access with a moving pool/reef cover
16. Large raised tanks to to create vertical scrubber+grazing tanks (reverse dropoff)
17. Large settling tank with rotating separation for detritus
18. All year access and survive TX heat and cold
19. Must be outside (wife constraint)
I'm still looking for ways to achieve them in the simplest possible way. The back and forth with my wife is intended to achieve this also. She questions my approaches until the solution gets better... If you have any alternative ideas, I'd love to hear them!

The idea is so modify the design so I don't have to remove too much to return it to a conventional pool. That's part of the discussion with the wife. More on that in a bit...


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Old 05/17/2020, 10:46 PM   #92
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Quote:
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Yes. I loved it. It was part of what inspired me to take this on


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Old 05/17/2020, 10:47 PM   #93
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I thought you were referencing the reef. You'll have no life in the reef for a year?
Once I go salt, I'm going to start cycling it with fish - mostly to get the scrubbers going first.

I have a lot of systems to test first though. That's all freshwater testing.


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Old 05/17/2020, 11:40 PM   #94
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ok.. here are the updates after the "discourse"...

the pool top walk-tiles are gone. There's a wooden deck walkway that is removable (still haven't figured out where it would go when removed - but that's an issue for another discussion).
the reef is moved all the way to one side and the pool section is expanded with "amenities" like steps and a baja shelf + fountain (this is relevant because it's all part of getting this to be sellable in the future).
the sump is reshaped to become a jacuzzi (square form factor in the back next to the house).
The screened area is gone and replaced with a "sump room" that can be converted in a jacuzzi room / sauna pre-sale.
There's only one set of windows on one side of the reef now.
There's a closed off screen that is below the fence line (5'9") that is just enough to allow use of the pool and access to the reef in the winter.

The total area of the structure is 26' x 30'.
The reef side is 26' x 8' with 16' x 8' being reef, 8' x 8' being sump and the last 2' of concrete wall.
The pool side is 26' x 20' with 2' of concrete wall.

Overall not a bad compromise I think.

pics incoming...


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Old 05/17/2020, 11:46 PM   #95
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The last image is just the permanent concrete - that's basically what can't be changed.


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Old 05/17/2020, 11:52 PM   #96
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I keep planning to put together a walkthrough youtube vid but time flies on the weekend.

Also - I couldn't get into the budget with the EPI plastic forms so I've pivotted to another type of construction using spiderties:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_vaSU2qDq4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-pQ9kQWQXc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtLfeHK8mGc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uEZNvXKYL4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOIVRz14hzQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1zzx-0tXv8

These were much more cost effective and had been proven in with pools before.


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Old 05/18/2020, 01:50 PM   #97
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I like the compromise of the reef on one side of the pool instead of in the middle. Seems it will make the reef easier to access.


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Old 05/18/2020, 04:31 PM   #98
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That was her point. I felt that my solution was more creative.... she said it was stupid. I decided to move on.

I take criticism well...


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Old 05/18/2020, 04:47 PM   #99
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Very detailed planning, looks like a great start to a huge project. The pink flamingo floats really tie the whole thing together


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Old 05/18/2020, 07:31 PM   #100
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Very detailed planning, looks like a great start to a huge project. The pink flamingo floats really tie the whole thing together
Thanks! I threw those in to get the kids excited... and provide scale and perspective.

The larger pools has inflated the budget though so I'm running in deep red and that's not even because of the reef. It's a 23,000 gal (30 x 26' x 4') volume total. The pool itself is 16,000 gal (20' x 26' x 4') but the reef is more than the 7,000 remaining because it rises up over the pool. The concrete separation takes up volume too.

The reef is 8' x 16' x 6.5' ~ 6,000 gal
The sump is 8' x 8' x 4' ~ 1,900 gal
The surge fuge holds 8' x 5' x 2' ~ 600 gal
There are surges that have additional volume but it's swap volume with the sump so I only count it all once.

So 6000+1900+600 = 8500 gals


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