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 05/12/2020, 01:35 AM #76 karimwassef Registered Member     Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,007 Here's the volume calculations: The reef is 4' + 2'9" deep ~ 6'9" and it's 8' x 16' so that's around 6500 gallons. The surge tanks are 2' x 8' x 6' so that's around 700 gallons. The surge fuge is 4' x 8' x 2.5' and that's 600 gallons. About 1'4" (of the 4') is actually "surge" @ 200 gallons and the fuge is the rest @ 400 gallons. The sump volume is 5' x 20' x 4' and that's 3000 gallons. The sump volume and the surge tank volumes will alternate, so I'm only counting the sump volume. The surge fuge though has a fuge portion at 400 gallons... So the total actual volume is 6,500 gallons (reef) + 400 gallons (fuge) + 3,000 gallons (sump) = 9,900 gallons. However - I'm hoping to minimize the actual water volume by limiting the sump to only about 2' deep when the surges are full. So that's 5' x 20' x 2' ~ 1500 gallons. I'm also going to use limestone gravel covering the bottom 1' 3" so that reduces the actual water volume in the reef to 8' x 16' x 5' 6" ~ 5300 gallons. So the water volume is 5,300 gallons (reef) + 600 gallons (surge fuge) + 700 gallons (surge tanks) + 1,500 gallons (sump) ~ 8,100 gallons. Still massive... but I wanted to be clear since I decided to title the thread 10,000 gal pool reef. __________________ Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
 05/13/2020, 06:34 AM #78 McPuff Registered Member     Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,732 Karim, is there a way to view the reef up close without standing in the pool? This seems like a downside to the current plan...but maybe I'm missing a detail.
 05/13/2020, 04:25 PM #79 karimwassef Registered Member     Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,007 Yes. The walk on platforms act as a bridge between the pool edge and the reef edge concrete. They basically cover all the pool water so you walk up to the reef. Also, the vertical surge tanks rise 6’ above water level and the fish can swim up into it. They’re basically inverted tanks so the tangs can graze on the scrubber growth. __________________ Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape Last edited by karimwassef; 05/13/2020 at 04:45 PM.
 05/13/2020, 04:44 PM #80 karimwassef Registered Member     Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,007 Also.. here's the yard - nice and sunny! __________________ Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
05/14/2020, 08:39 AM   #81
McPuff
Registered Member

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,732
Quote:
 Originally Posted by karimwassef Yes. The walk on platforms act as a bridge between the pool edge and the reef edge concrete. They basically cover all the pool water so you walk up to the reef. Also, the vertical surge tanks rise 6’ above water level and the fish can swim up into it. They’re basically inverted tanks so the tangs can graze on the scrubber growth.
So there's a hard cover on the pool that will support walking? And is the one guy in the actual reef? I assume he's in the water, right? The scrubbers are a cool idea. Will be fun to watch the tangs swim up into it.

What's the time frame for this construction... how long would it actually take to build? Any idea yet?

 05/14/2020, 11:35 AM #82 karimwassef Registered Member     Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,007 Yes. It’s a solid floor supported by the concrete walls. The deep reef is 5.5’ deep - so yes, that’s me inside the reef. It’s also got 11’ of shallow reef length so snorkeling maybe? I’m still waiting on permits and HOA... but I have most of the contractors lined up for phase 1... the pool (with reef hooks). I would like to start testing the automation and surges by August. I will probably go without life this year so I can evaluate the winter weather impact on temperature with the geothermal and radiant heat solutions... __________________ Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
 05/14/2020, 11:56 AM #83 karimwassef Registered Member     Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,007 The hard cover is 2x4s on 16” spacing on center. They’re probably epoxy coated. The panels are ~ 5’ x 4’. There’s a 1/2” clear plastic sheet so it can act as a greenhouse in the winter. Since the openings are only 16” x 16” - the plastic should be able to hold up my weight. I should calculate the maximum load. Barefoot only use! No heels. __________________ Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
 05/14/2020, 01:27 PM #84 travisstewart Registered Member   Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 160 Man I wish I Understood half the stuff you’re saying. Really interested in this and I think Snorkeling would be super cool. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 05/15/2020, 07:29 AM #85 McPuff Registered Member     Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,732 No life? Please put in a school of damsels at least! ��
 05/15/2020, 10:22 AM #86 karimwassef Registered Member     Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,007 The saltwater for a pool that big is too much to waste on damsels. I might put a freshwater fish to see how they weather the winter. __________________ Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
 05/15/2020, 11:39 PM #87 karimwassef Registered Member     Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,007 The last 24 hours have been contentious as we get ready to spend some big \$\$\$ on the pool and reef. Pool for her, Reef for me. Some good changes, but also a lot of stress. It's mostly revolving around changes to make it so the structure doesn't diminish the value of the house. I realize most people don't care about reefs or ponds or even pools for that matter but I invested a lot of time making it more appealing to the general John-Q-Public out there... and we're still not in agreement. __________________ Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
 05/17/2020, 01:03 AM #88 laverda Registered Member     Join Date: May 2003 Location: Anaheim, CA Posts: 6,876 Looks to be a very interesting project. In no way do I wish to offend you, but you asked for feed back. It seems way to complex to me. Keep it simple. Also will you be able to remove the reef components and walls when it comes time to sell the house? If you want it go for it. __________________ 240G mixed reef, 29G SPS/LPS clam tank, 50G mixed reef Current Tank Info: 300g mixed reef, 50g cube
 05/17/2020, 03:14 PM #89 laverda Registered Member     Join Date: May 2003 Location: Anaheim, CA Posts: 6,876 Have you seen this thread? http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2607925 __________________ 240G mixed reef, 29G SPS/LPS clam tank, 50G mixed reef Current Tank Info: 300g mixed reef, 50g cube
05/17/2020, 05:26 PM   #90
McPuff
Registered Member

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,732
Quote:
 Originally Posted by karimwassef The saltwater for a pool that big is too much to waste on damsels. I might put a freshwater fish to see how they weather the winter.
I thought you were referencing the reef. You'll have no life in the reef for a year?

05/17/2020, 10:45 PM   #91
karimwassef
Registered Member

Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 11,007
Laverda - thanks for your feedback. I'm always happy to get it especially if it helps me make a more successful system in the end!

I've been accused of making the largest Rube Goldberg reef (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg) before...

If there's a simpler way to solve the problem, I'm very open to it. There are some engineering constraints that I can't overcome though... the city, the HOA, the wife!

That's actually why I listed my goal - here they are at the most fundamental basis:

Quote:
 Originally Posted by karimwassef 1. Solar light to reduce cost of lighting 2. Geothermal to reduce cooling cost 3. Radiant heating coils to allow me to use existing gas heating 4. Peninsula to allow 3 sided view 5. Dropoff edge to create separate shallow and deep reefs 6. Deep cavern region for the fish to hide and sleep & encourage sponges. 7. Large shallow reef with side and top view 8. Underwater pool view 9. Thermal mass of the pool to control heat loss 10. Tides with a hydraulically controlled overflow 11. 4 massive channel surges that can immediately flow in circulating channel flow loops to each other 12. 100% surge-fuge return inside the rock to encourage soft structure plankton 13. Underground surge flush through limestone 14. Sand bottom and rock bottom 15. Year round access with a moving pool/reef cover 16. Large raised tanks to to create vertical scrubber+grazing tanks (reverse dropoff) 17. Large settling tank with rotating separation for detritus 18. All year access and survive TX heat and cold 19. Must be outside (wife constraint)
I'm still looking for ways to achieve them in the simplest possible way. The back and forth with my wife is intended to achieve this also. She questions my approaches until the solution gets better... If you have any alternative ideas, I'd love to hear them!

The idea is so modify the design so I don't have to remove too much to return it to a conventional pool. That's part of the discussion with the wife. More on that in a bit...

__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape

05/17/2020, 10:46 PM   #92
karimwassef
Registered Member

Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 11,007
Quote:
 Originally Posted by laverda Have you seen this thread? http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2607925
Yes. I loved it. It was part of what inspired me to take this on

__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape

05/17/2020, 10:47 PM   #93
karimwassef
Registered Member

Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 11,007
Quote:
 Originally Posted by McPuff I thought you were referencing the reef. You'll have no life in the reef for a year?
Once I go salt, I'm going to start cycling it with fish - mostly to get the scrubbers going first.

I have a lot of systems to test first though. That's all freshwater testing.

__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape

 05/17/2020, 11:40 PM #94 karimwassef Registered Member     Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,007 ok.. here are the updates after the "discourse"... the pool top walk-tiles are gone. There's a wooden deck walkway that is removable (still haven't figured out where it would go when removed - but that's an issue for another discussion). the reef is moved all the way to one side and the pool section is expanded with "amenities" like steps and a baja shelf + fountain (this is relevant because it's all part of getting this to be sellable in the future). the sump is reshaped to become a jacuzzi (square form factor in the back next to the house). The screened area is gone and replaced with a "sump room" that can be converted in a jacuzzi room / sauna pre-sale. There's only one set of windows on one side of the reef now. There's a closed off screen that is below the fence line (5'9") that is just enough to allow use of the pool and access to the reef in the winter. The total area of the structure is 26' x 30'. The reef side is 26' x 8' with 16' x 8' being reef, 8' x 8' being sump and the last 2' of concrete wall. The pool side is 26' x 20' with 2' of concrete wall. Overall not a bad compromise I think. pics incoming... __________________ Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape Last edited by karimwassef; 05/17/2020 at 11:49 PM.
 05/17/2020, 11:46 PM #95 karimwassef Registered Member     Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,007 The last image is just the permanent concrete - that's basically what can't be changed. __________________ Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
 05/17/2020, 11:52 PM #96 karimwassef Registered Member     Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,007 I keep planning to put together a walkthrough youtube vid but time flies on the weekend. Also - I couldn't get into the budget with the EPI plastic forms so I've pivotted to another type of construction using spiderties: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_vaSU2qDq4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-pQ9kQWQXc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtLfeHK8mGc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uEZNvXKYL4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOIVRz14hzQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1zzx-0tXv8 These were much more cost effective and had been proven in with pools before. __________________ Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape Last edited by karimwassef; 05/17/2020 at 11:59 PM.
 05/18/2020, 01:50 PM #97 Lytehouse seeker of knowledge     Join Date: May 2007 Location: NW OKC Posts: 3,272 I like the compromise of the reef on one side of the pool instead of in the middle. Seems it will make the reef easier to access. __________________ --Lynn The challenge is the fun.
 05/18/2020, 04:31 PM #98 karimwassef Registered Member     Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,007 That was her point. I felt that my solution was more creative.... she said it was stupid. I decided to move on. I take criticism well... __________________ Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
 05/18/2020, 04:47 PM #99 Potoooooooo Registered Member     Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 23 Very detailed planning, looks like a great start to a huge project. The pink flamingo floats really tie the whole thing together
05/18/2020, 07:31 PM   #100
karimwassef
Registered Member

Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 11,007
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Potoooooooo Very detailed planning, looks like a great start to a huge project. The pink flamingo floats really tie the whole thing together
Thanks! I threw those in to get the kids excited... and provide scale and perspective.

The larger pools has inflated the budget though so I'm running in deep red and that's not even because of the reef. It's a 23,000 gal (30 x 26' x 4') volume total. The pool itself is 16,000 gal (20' x 26' x 4') but the reef is more than the 7,000 remaining because it rises up over the pool. The concrete separation takes up volume too.

The reef is 8' x 16' x 6.5' ~ 6,000 gal
The sump is 8' x 8' x 4' ~ 1,900 gal
The surge fuge holds 8' x 5' x 2' ~ 600 gal
There are surges that have additional volume but it's swap volume with the sump so I only count it all once.

So 6000+1900+600 = 8500 gals

__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape

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