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Old 02/20/2011, 05:08 PM   #226
liz62
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So it is ok to put salt in a mesh bag and throw it in your sump?

Example: Lets say I wet skim off 1-2 gallons of salt water - I can then replace the salt water by putting 1/2-1 cup of dry salt in a mesh bag and leave it to dissolve in my sump?


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Old 02/21/2011, 02:16 PM   #227
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to each his/her own!

Quote:
Originally Posted by liz62 View Post
So it is ok to put salt in a mesh bag and throw it in your sump?

Example: Lets say I wet skim off 1-2 gallons of salt water - I can then replace the salt water by putting 1/2-1 cup of dry salt in a mesh bag and leave it to dissolve in my sump?
I wouldn't recommend doing this. Replace the skimmed off water with new saltwater!

Have you ever noticed how critters react to solid salts placed into a reef aquarium?

Corals stress. Pods run for cover. etc. etc. etc.


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Old 02/21/2011, 02:51 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Gary Majchrzak View Post
I wouldn't recommend doing this. Replace the skimmed off water with new saltwater!

Have you ever noticed how critters react to solid salts placed into a reef aquarium?

Corals stress. Pods run for cover. etc. etc. etc.
That is what figured but I noticed that one of the posters does this method?

Originally Posted by JMBoehling
Little Update:

I took the Saltwater offline from the float. Back to just using Kalk. What I do now is whenever my skimmate reaches 1 gallon, I empty the bucket (Skimmate) and add 1 cup of Salt to my reef (Along with Calcium and Magnesium). I am using a small fish net with the ultra fine brine mesh to hold the salt. I made a little holder that holds the fish net and salt in the overflow of my reef and SLOWLY mixes the new salt into my reef over a two hour time frame.

I still keep the Venturi intake tube in my 5 gallon skimmate bucket so the Maximum skimmate I can remove via my skimmer is 2 gallon (Just in case my bristle worm or snails decide the breed and cause the skimmer to go nuts )

All in all, my tank is looking better than ever using this method, and now I can keep my PH and ALK higher just dripping Kalk

Later,

Jim


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Old 02/21/2011, 03:07 PM   #229
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I read that as well

I read a lot of things that I don't rush out to copy.
That's not to say that Jim's method doesn't work for him or it won't work for you.


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Old 02/21/2011, 03:27 PM   #230
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I guess it would depend on what size system that you are running as well? The bigger the system then the less effect it would have on it? I am not sure what size tank Jim runs - maybe it is very large? I see it now - he runs a 90gl. - well I have a 75gl. What do you think would be the negative effects of throwing a mesh bag of salt in the sump? I run zeovit so it is a fairly controlled system.


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Old 02/21/2011, 03:38 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by liz62 View Post
I guess it would depend on what size system that you are running as well? The bigger the system then the less effect it would have on it? I am not sure what size tank Jim runs - maybe it is very large? I see it now - he runs a 90gl. - well I have a 75gl. What do you think would be the negative effects of throwing a mesh bag of salt in the sump? I run zeovit so it is a fairly controlled system.
U could try it, but it would cause PH fluctuations till all mixed in, as well as some sort of precipitate I'd guess, also have to be sure it is fully solved in water before hitting main tank as the salt grains do burn sps and other corals.

I know a couple fish stores who do this on f.o. Tanks as well...

You can ultimately turn off the return pump and do this in sump, and turn return back on when fully done...


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Old 02/22/2011, 02:13 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liz62 View Post
I guess it would depend on what size system that you are running as well? The bigger the system then the less effect it would have on it? I am not sure what size tank Jim runs - maybe it is very large? I see it now - he runs a 90gl. - well I have a 75gl. What do you think would be the negative effects of throwing a mesh bag of salt in the sump? I run zeovit so it is a fairly controlled system.
Zeo, a cone skimmer and you want to toss a mesh bag full of salt in your sump.

It just doesn't make sense to me.


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Old 02/22/2011, 02:27 PM   #233
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If I was to wet skim daily and take off a couple of gallons then I thought it would be easier way to replace the saltwater. I have no way of having a large SW barrel at my disposal.


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Old 03/02/2011, 10:28 PM   #234
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LOTS of great ideas here. I had never thought of water change via skimmer. I plan to try this for consideration in an automatic water change system. I would turn off the main return allowing the water level in the sump to rise. This would cause the skimmer to overflow pushing the excess water into a 5gal bucket until it reached normal skimming level in the sump and is skimming normal. I would then either
1. turn off the skimmer, fill with to the higher level (my back up level for my ATO in case primary doesn't work so I can avoid flooding) with fresh saltwater, turn main return pump on, keep filling with fresh saltwater using ATO, then turn on skimmer (which lowers sump level again) and fill more fresh saltwater until ATO level, then switch back to normal fresh RO ATO.
2. turn on main return pump, top off with fresh saltwater as main return pump and skimmer are running

I think I'd opt for the first option to avoid any issues with running pumps dry. I can do this (hopefully) programming my Reef Angel that I just ordered. I'd also have a float switch on my skimmer waste bucket to avoid overflowing that bucket. And of course the controller would check to make sure there is enough fresh saltwater in the other bucket before heating it, circulating, and proceeding. Oh, and this is on a tank that is only about 50 gal, if that, in total volume. Small volume, I know, but I love automation. It was part of my major in college.


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Old 05/01/2011, 07:04 PM   #235
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This seems to be a rather silly method to perform a water change. So it's wet skimmate. What good is that? The time it takes to do a normal water change is maybe 5min. Doing this way takes hours. Those same hours of normal skimming would produce a dark full skimmate instead of light, weak skimmate. I don't get the advantage to this.


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Old 05/01/2011, 07:41 PM   #236
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Quote:
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This seems to be a rather silly method to perform a water change. So it's wet skimmate. What good is that? The time it takes to do a normal water change is maybe 5min. Doing this way takes hours. Those same hours of normal skimming would produce a dark full skimmate instead of light, weak skimmate. I don't get the advantage to this.
For me when I turn off the main return the water level rises in the sump and it starts wet skimming into a bucket I have setup. It'll wet skim until it returns to just below the normal water level (takes about 30-40 min). I let it do it's thing while I am checking everything with the new water and watching tv. Then I plug my powerhead to pump fresh water in up to my ATO system, turn the main return back on and watch it refill.

I wouldn't say it's quicker than what I used to do for water changes, but it's super easy (very little spilling) and it's one step closer to automating the system. I have the equipment to automate, I've just been to lazy to set it up right (haha, makes sense, right?).


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Old 05/01/2011, 08:19 PM   #237
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Quote:
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This seems to be a rather silly method to perform a water change. So it's wet skimmate. What good is that? The time it takes to do a normal water change is maybe 5min. Doing this way takes hours. Those same hours of normal skimming would produce a dark full skimmate instead of light, weak skimmate. I don't get the advantage to this.
In theory skimming wetter allows you to replace the dirtiest water with fresh saltwater rather than just exchanging it for regular tank water. Think of it this way: the water you remove during a normal water change is usually pretty close to being clear - it doesn't contain a high concentration of organics. However, when skimming wet the water being pulled out is tea-colored or darker (i.e. it contains lots of organics).

The concentration of the skimmate is irrelevant - the point is that theoretically the total amount of organics being removed from the aquarium is increased using this method because the skimmer can push out organics faster (again, in theory, it takes longer to for a skimmer to concentrate organics into a dry foam than it does to push them out continuously in a wetter foam). The idea is that you get more bang for your fresh saltwater than you would with a standard waterchange, plus there are ways to automate this to make it easier. Also, the skimmer neck stays much cleaner so for those without neck cleaners the skimmer is working more efficiently for this reason as well. As far as I know, there is no controlled study to prove this, but many people have had positive results using this method.

I understand that looking at a skimmer cup full of sludge may be more satisfying, but personally I think it is more efficient to keep the skimmer running cleaner and skimming wetter. At the end of the day though, there are so many variables that come into play that whether or not this method will work better for you just depends on your setup.


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Old 05/02/2011, 02:14 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilk View Post
This seems to be a rather silly method to perform a water change. So it's wet skimmate. What good is that? The time it takes to do a normal water change is maybe 5min. Doing this way takes hours. Those same hours of normal skimming would produce a dark full skimmate instead of light, weak skimmate. I don't get the advantage to this.
try it and you might



it's pretty easy to show that a wet skimmate water change is more effective than a regular water change at removing a higher percentage of organics during a water change.

Fill a deep clean white bucket with old "regular" aquarium water.

Now, fill a deep clean white bucket with old "wet skimmed" aquarium water (after discarding dark tea colored skimmate already in collection cup!)

Compare coloration of both.

If speed is what you seek in a water change the wet skim water change isn't for you . If effectiveness is your goal than you might consider this method.


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Old 05/04/2011, 11:57 AM   #239
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The reason the wet smimmate is tea colored vs that of the regular water change water is it has the skimmate in it that has been residing in the skimmer cup and neck.

My only issue was, if I understood the process correctly, was to do this over an extended period of time. In that same time frame, the skimmer would be working normally and producing the same dark skimmate it usually does. Just not sure if this does anything to remove more organics or it's just diluted skimmate that would have been produced under normal operation.

Now for using this method as a flushing mechanism to clean the skimmer neck and cup, well I can see value in that. No need to pull the skimmer cup and then wait until the skimmer starts to fractionate foam all over again.

I plumbed my system with a separate valve that branches off of the return. It has a hose barb and hose already attached. I just open it and fill 5 gal. into a bucket and then replace that 5gal. with fresh seawater. Takes less than 5 min. but I'll try using the wet skimmer cleaning method for the first gallon or so. My skimmer has a hose that runs to a good sized collection container. Water change and skimmer cleaning all in one sounds good.


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Old 05/04/2011, 02:06 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Majchrzak View Post
try it and you might



it's pretty easy to show that a wet skimmate water change is more effective than a regular water change at removing a higher percentage of organics during a water change.

Fill a deep clean white bucket with old "regular" aquarium water.

Now, fill a deep clean white bucket with old "wet skimmed" aquarium water (after discarding dark tea colored skimmate already in collection cup!)

Compare coloration of both.

If speed is what you seek in a water change the wet skim water change isn't for you . If effectiveness is your goal than you might consider this method.
I think that is not quite the correct comparison based on Bilk's argument.
A proper comparison is,
bucket 1 contains wet skimmate (say collected over 5 hours)
bucket 2,contains your regular aquarium water, PLUS dump in what would have been skimmed over 5 hours.

And Bilk's argument is it will be about the same, and I can see he has a point there. Actually, I will say bucket 2 will be dirtier because normal skimming for 5 hours will extract more organics than 5 hours of very wet skimming.



Quote:
Originally Posted by alexwbush View Post
For me when I turn off the main return the water level rises in the sump and it starts wet skimming into a bucket I have setup. It'll wet skim until it returns to just below the normal water level (takes about 30-40 min). I let it do it's thing while I am checking everything with the new water and watching tv. Then I plug my powerhead to pump fresh water in up to my ATO system, turn the main return back on and watch it refill.

I wouldn't say it's quicker than what I used to do for water changes, but it's super easy (very little spilling) and it's one step closer to automating the system. I have the equipment to automate, I've just been to lazy to set it up right (haha, makes sense, right?).
your sump is not setup correctly if turning off the return pump will rise the water level for the skimmer. I used to have this problem when I forget to turn off the skimmer before turning off the return pump causing all the skimmate to overflow and spill over back into the sump , till I read somewhere a properly configured sump should not need turning off the skimmer when the return pump is turned off, and that the skimmer water level MUST remain constant regardless if return pump is running or not.


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Old 05/04/2011, 02:45 PM   #241
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The reason the wet smimmate is tea colored vs that of the regular water change water is it has the skimmate in it that has been residing in the skimmer cup and neck.
notice that I posted NOT to include skimmate that was residing in the collection cup.


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Old 05/04/2011, 02:49 PM   #242
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Actually, I will say bucket 2 will be dirtier because normal skimming for 5 hours will extract more organics than 5 hours of very wet skimming.
apples and oranges.

5 hours of skimming is 5 hours of skimming.

Removing 5 hours of wet skimmed water to do a water change is much different than removing the same amount of "regular" old water from the aquarium and running the skimmer "dry" for those 5 hours. Simply put: it works!




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Old 05/04/2011, 02:58 PM   #243
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I don't think it will be the same, as the amount of air involved is greatly decreased when you wet skim. I'm sure you know the principle of skimming requires air. At a minimum I will agree for the sake of argument that it can be the same, but you can never say the wet skim will have more organics than the regular water plus the normal skim.

The principle is really flawed if you consider Bilk's agrument.

You're saying it works is like saying you drive to work backwards and you get there everyday. Sure that is true, but based on Bilks argument as an analogy, it is a silly way to get there, as there are many more tanks that look nice that don't do wet skim. so it cannot be attributed to wet skim water change alone. in fact, I'd say your good husbandry is the reason for your nice tank, and you can have just as nice a tank even if you do normal water change.


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Old 05/04/2011, 03:16 PM   #244
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bottom line in layman's terms:

removing 5 gallons of wet skimmed water is more efficient at removing organics from a system than removing 5 gallons of water from the display aquarium (for a water change).

Quote:
Originally Posted by d0ughb0y View Post
in fact, I'd say your good husbandry is the reason for your nice tank, and you can have just as nice a tank even if you do normal water change.
thanks and I agree

But why not opt for more bang for the buck?


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Old 05/04/2011, 03:46 PM   #245
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Perhaps it was lost earlier in this thread, or maybe it was just in different threads, but part of the reasoning behind wet skimming is that it removes more organic matter than dry skimming for the same amount of time.

While I agree there is no data to bear on this issue, the reasoning is sound.

If you create a foam, then you drain it to some extent, more draining to form a dryer foam will also cause some loss in organic matter in that drained water. The only question is how large the effect is. Is it a 50% difference, or a 0.1% difference in total removed organic matter. We just do not know.


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Old 05/04/2011, 07:16 PM   #246
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thanks for reminding us of this, Randy.

I've been doing wet skim water changes for several years now after over a decade of performing "regular" water changes. I wish I could quantify the amount of organics removed by both methods but it's beyond my means.

In any case, it makes sense that 5 gallons of wet skimmate might contain more organics than 5 gallons of "regular" aquarium water.
The wet skimmate is certainly darker and more foamy than regular aquarium water!


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Old 05/05/2011, 07:24 AM   #247
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thanks for reminding us of this, Randy.

I've been doing wet skim water changes for several years now after over a decade of performing "regular" water changes. I wish I could quantify the amount of organics removed by both methods but it's beyond my means.

In any case, it makes sense that 5 gallons of wet skimmate might contain more organics than 5 gallons of "regular" aquarium water.
The wet skimmate is certainly darker and more foamy than regular aquarium water!
Not arguing the point that wet skimmed water has more organics than just removing water from the system. I believe the skimmer under normal skimming will remove the same amount if not more during the same duration of time needed to wet skim. Wet skimming also requires one to change the settings on the skimmer. Then you have to dial it back in again. I just don't see the benefit other than getting a cleaner skimmer after the water change is finished. But that's jmo.



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Old 05/05/2011, 01:00 PM   #248
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Wouldn't the increased amount of organics skimmed out w/ wet skim over dry have to be greater than the amount of organics in the water changed w/ "regular water change?

I say worse case you have at least equal amts. of organics skimmed AND the added benefit of having to clean the skimmer less!

This method makes sense to me.


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Old 05/05/2011, 01:06 PM   #249
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I believe the skimmer under normal skimming will remove the same amount if not more during the same duration of time needed to wet skim.

Sure, one could try to set the skimmer to not function as well, but if all you do is allow the same foam (and perhaps that is where we disagree) to drain more before collecting it, I cannot see any way the organic material could be less under wet skimming.


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Old 05/05/2011, 01:25 PM   #250
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I believe the skimmer under normal skimming will remove the same amount if not more during the same duration of time needed to wet skim.

Sure, one could try to set the skimmer to not function as well, but if all you do is allow the same foam (and perhaps that is where we disagree) to drain more before collecting it, I cannot see any way the organic material could be less under wet skimming.
Hi Randy. I guess the essence of what your saying is that we should wet skim over dryer skimming? So if we were able to wet skim 100% of the time, we'd accomplish a better environment? I always believed that longer contact time was necessary to achieve adhesion.

I have only seen a few up close, but even marine aquariums with limitless water sources, seem to be dry skimming. Maybe I'm wrong on this but I think wet skimming just removes more of the good stuff vs that of dry skimming.


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