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Old 11/23/2020, 07:20 PM   #1551
vlangel
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It sounds like a delicate procedure but having the patch reef elevated to stay sure would be nice. Entropy does seem to have a way of leveling everything.


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Current Tank Info: A 56 gallon high nutrient macro algae/coral reef that overflows into a basement 30 gallon seahorse macro algae fuge that overflows into a 20 gallon sump
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Old 11/23/2020, 11:33 PM   #1552
Michael Hoaster
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Agreed, it would be nice for the live rock to not get swallowed by the sand. Stacking it on top of rocks will really expose much more surface area for colonization by sponges and such. I need to go look in my box of rocks, and see if I have enough to do it.

I have to admit, 'entropy' went right over my head. Thanks for the word Dawn! Randomness and disorder. Yep, that applies! I love adding new words to my lexicon.

So, would you say entropy is another factor in our quest to harness art and nature? Are our constant adjustments the yin to entropy's yan?

Yesterday I pulled up and replanted nine manatee grass plants. There are spots with too many plants and spots with too few. They transplant well. So I move some around. Anti-entropian?

Research indicates Rabbitfish is the winner of the 'I love Caulerpa' search. Downside is they get pretty big and they have venomous fins. They're supposed to be pretty mellow community citizens, though. Foxfaces don't get that big. My wife will like a bigger fish. The small ones are hard to see.

But I also need to think of the plan for the overall fish community. Since it will be one of the biggest fish I get, it will likely go in pretty late in the order of introduction. So, lots more to think about.


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Old Yesterday, 04:30 AM   #1553
vlangel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster View Post
Agreed, it would be nice for the live rock to not get swallowed by the sand. Stacking it on top of rocks will really expose much more surface area for colonization by sponges and such. I need to go look in my box of rocks, and see if I have enough to do it.

I have to admit, 'entropy' went right over my head. Thanks for the word Dawn! Randomness and disorder. Yep, that applies! I love adding new words to my lexicon.

So, would you say entropy is another factor in our quest to harness art and nature? Are our constant adjustments the yin to entropy's yan?

Yesterday I pulled up and replanted nine manatee grass plants. There are spots with too many plants and spots with too few. They transplant well. So I move some around. Anti-entropian?

Research indicates Rabbitfish is the winner of the 'I love Caulerpa' search. Downside is they get pretty big and they have venomous fins. They're supposed to be pretty mellow community citizens, though. Foxfaces don't get that big. My wife will like a bigger fish. The small ones are hard to see.

But I also need to think of the plan for the overall fish community. Since it will be one of the biggest fish I get, it will likely go in pretty late in the order of introduction. So, lots more to think about.
Ha ha, 'entropy' came to my mind when I was sprucing my tank up for my son's visit. He also has a marine tank and we both work feverishly on our aquariums to whip them into shape for a good showing when we visit each other. It's kind of cute actually. Anyway, I had noticed that my tiered sandbed was also sinking. Sand had been slowly and nearly imperceptibly seeping out to the lower levels, thus leveling my tiers. I got a small cup and proceeded to replace sand at the higher levels.

I definitely agree that entropy is constantly at work against our endeavor to create art in our natural water boxes. And why not, doesn't nature also go from order to chaos, from a higher state to a lower state. It's one of the laws of physics.

Good for you moving and transplanting the manatee grass and being anti-entropian! Ha ha, now that is a new word for my vocabulary!

A squirrel fish or foxface may be a good fit for your tank. I personally have experience with foxface fish and although they are venomous, I have never been stung. One of the big tank accounts that I maintained at an oral surgeon's office had one for years. It was a FOWLR and had a lot of rock and plastic coral that regularly needed bleached and cleaned. Even with all the constant re-scaping of that tank, I never felt nervous about the fox face stinging me. It just did not seem in the least way aggressive. It was the female clown that I kept my eye on as she would bite me every chance she got!
A wide open tank like yours would be no problem with a foxface in my opinion. They are beautiful too and would be a great center piece fish along with being a good grazer of Caulerpa.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention in my earlier post how much I like the latest pics. As your tank matures it just keeps getting better and better. I hope adding the new rock under the live rock in the tank does not set things back too much.


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And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, ...and God sawthat it was good. Genesis 1:20 - 21

Current Tank Info: A 56 gallon high nutrient macro algae/coral reef that overflows into a basement 30 gallon seahorse macro algae fuge that overflows into a 20 gallon sump
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Old Yesterday, 09:50 AM   #1554
Michael Hoaster
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It's funny, I'd heard the word used before, and always figured I knew the gist of it. But when you used it referencing our tanks, I had to look it up. It really does apply to our aquariums, for sure.

In some ways though it seems like Nature makes our crude work look more idealistic. Like my heavy-handed pruning of my red macros. I know that they will look much better once Nature has had it's chance to 're-idealize'. But then, over time, they get shaggy and entropy is back.

We walk a tightrope of making adjustments, relaxing and enjoying, and then more adjustments, since entropy never ends! So we struggle using art and science to achieve our aquarium goals, and all the while entropy lurks.

That's good to hear about foxfaces. I've never kept one.

Thanks, I've been pretty happy with the tank overall, especially the Manatee grass. It's been a roller coaster ride. Remember it wasn't that long ago that I almost killed it all off. I went from more than sixty plants down to thirteen.

I think the rock work project shouldn't be too disruptive. At least I'll try to minimize it. Hopefully, I have enough old rocks to do it.


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Old Yesterday, 10:45 AM   #1555
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Looking forward to seeing the changes!


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Old Yesterday, 11:09 AM   #1556
Michael Hoaster
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Thanks ThePurple12! Me too! I'm kind of excited about it.


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Old Yesterday, 06:19 PM   #1557
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I'm curious to see how your foxface will do. I'm sure it'll destroy the caulerpa, but you don't think it will eat your seagrass?


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Old Yesterday, 11:15 PM   #1558
Michael Hoaster
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Nothing I've read mentions seagrass in their diets. But most macros are, barring the heavily calcified ones, like halimeda. My biggest worry is that it will eat my prized red macros, few that I have. If I do get a rabbitfish, I'll have to deal with that. It's possible that it might go after my grasses, once the macros are gone. So I'll need to get it eating veggie fish food or remove it.

Who knows! Maybe I won't get one. Now that the tank has the lush growth that I wanted, I'm talking about mowing it all down. Once I get it mowed down, I'll think it's too bare. It's a sickness!

Given the economic uncertainty, I'm inclined to spend less these days, so I doubt it'll happen anytime soon. And, as I mentioned, I still need to consider what other fish I'll be adding, and the order of introduction.


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Old Today, 05:45 AM   #1559
vlangel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster View Post
It's funny, I'd heard the word used before, and always figured I knew the gist of it. But when you used it referencing our tanks, I had to look it up. It really does apply to our aquariums, for sure.

In some ways though it seems like Nature makes our crude work look more idealistic. Like my heavy-handed pruning of my red macros. I know that they will look much better once Nature has had it's chance to 're-idealize'. But then, over time, they get shaggy and entropy is back.

We walk a tightrope of making adjustments, relaxing and enjoying, and then more adjustments, since entropy never ends! So we struggle using art and science to achieve our aquarium goals, and all the while entropy lurks.

That's good to hear about foxfaces. I've never kept one.

Thanks, I've been pretty happy with the tank overall, especially the Manatee grass. It's been a roller coaster ride. Remember it wasn't that long ago that I almost killed it all off. I went from more than sixty plants down to thirteen.

I think the rock work project shouldn't be too disruptive. At least I'll try to minimize it. Hopefully, I have enough old rocks to do it.
This post hits the nail on the head. There is a hidden tension between letting nature do what it does best, and yet without us there to tend and garden our tanks they would grow wild and out of control. You articulated that so well.

I think we who keep more natural tanks see the balance and tension at play more readily. We know and understand what a powerful perfect force nature is and have less illusions about our own ability to totally control it, and ultimately understand that our own efforts are far less perfect. If we can merely reroute the laws of entropy at work in our tanks, then we have probably done the best we can do.

Good luck Michael in adding rock to the sandbed. Also I am looking forward to seeing what fish you ultimately choose to go with. I actually have no experience whatsoever to draw on whether a foxface would eat seagrass. You are the first person that I have come across that has grown seagrass. And actually I do not know many marine aquarists who even keep macro algae and none with a foxface. In many ways you are breaking new ground with adding fish to your system. It should be interesting.


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And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, ...and God sawthat it was good. Genesis 1:20 - 21

Current Tank Info: A 56 gallon high nutrient macro algae/coral reef that overflows into a basement 30 gallon seahorse macro algae fuge that overflows into a 20 gallon sump
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Old Today, 08:21 AM   #1560
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Keep in mind that rabbitfish eat a lot and grow fast. They will almost certainly eat whatever macros you have whether you want them to or not. I'd recommend avoiding rabbits altogether. Foxface are closely related but not as piggy. They are pretty shy though especially if they don't have a lot of places to hide. Being venomous really shouldn't be a concern unless you plan to try and pet the fish. :0) I've had mine about 7 years and they can be quirky for quite a long time. It wasn't until it was in the 300 for a year or so that it started to calm down and not get scared whenever someone looked at him. A good option for you might be a bristletooth tang as they stay smaller, won't eat as much as the aforementioned fish, and will also help to keep the nuisance algae at bay.


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Old Today, 08:51 AM   #1561
Michael Hoaster
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Thanks Dawn. I enjoyed discussing entropy and how it factors into what we do as aquarists. It's good to learn new words too!

We'll see on the foxface. Since it will likely be awhile before I pull the trigger I really should try to enjoy the lush growth I currently have.


__________________
As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Old Today, 09:00 AM   #1562
Michael Hoaster
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Hey McPuff! Yep, that's what I have read. So getting a foxface or rabbitfish of some kind is not a perfect solution. But if I decide to be done with macros I know what to get. I've been looking at the bristle tooth tangs too, for help with detritus and associated algae.

Good to hear from you! How about a tank update and pics?


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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