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Old 05/10/2016, 07:31 PM   #1
teebone110
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Pro F vs Pro Bio F vs Pro Bio S vs Bio S vs NP Pro

Can you verify the differences between these products and what applications would these be best used... Do I have this right?

Bacteria

Bio S (liquid) = nitrifying bacteria to seed new systems

Pro Bio S (liquid) several specially selected bacteria strains



Bacteria Food

Pro Bio F (powder) different type of carbon source, "food" for bacteria, similar to vodka, vinegar, sugar

NP Pro (liquid)= polymer Media for a growth of probiotic bacteria, similar to biopellets

Pro F (liquid) = growth media for bacteria



Application

Pro Bio S + NP Pro = bacteria and media for growth

Pro Bio S + NP Pro + Pro Bio F = bacteria, media, and food

Pro Bio S + Pro Bio F = bacteria and food


I am unclear as to why one would choose to supplement Pro Bio S with either NP Pro or Pro Bio F or Pro F

Also, does AF Probiotic Reef Salt already contain Pro Bio F (powder), so one would only need to dose Pro Bio S (liquid) and NP Pro (liquid)?


Can you please confirm and comment on this?


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Old 05/11/2016, 07:25 AM   #2
Aquaforest
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Hello,

Bio S - Nitryfying bacteria
Pro Bio S - Probiotic Bacteria

Pro Bio F - probiotic bacteria and food for bacteria

Pro F - growth media for bacteria
-NP Pro - liquid polymer - growth media for bacteria

For small tanks we Recommend to use Pro Bio F only.

For tank with Average numer of corals We recommend to use Pro Bio S and -NP Pro - If nitrate and phosphate are very high You can add Pro Bio F also.

Probiotic Reef Salt contains another Probiotic bacteria then Pro Bio F but I think that:
Probiotic Reef Salt+Pro Bio S+ -NP Pro it enough to keep nitrate and phosphate low.

Regards,
Aquaforest


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Old 05/11/2016, 09:10 AM   #3
teebone110
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thats good feedback, much appreciated.

If we are using biopellets, is it okay to use:
Pro Bio S and Pro Bio F

My thoughts are that this would be a nice compliment of nitrate/phosphate reducing bacteria and would diversify the population?

Is it more or less the same bacteria that will have the exact same result?

Would you recommend to reduce the amounts of bio-pellets and the Pro Bio S +Pro Bio F?


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Old 05/11/2016, 10:00 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebone110 View Post
thats good feedback, much appreciated.

If we are using biopellets, is it okay to use:
Pro Bio S and Pro Bio F

My thoughts are that this would be a nice compliment of nitrate/phosphate reducing bacteria and would diversify the population?

Is it more or less the same bacteria that will have the exact same result?

Would you recommend to reduce the amounts of bio-pellets and the Pro Bio S +Pro Bio F?
I would use NP Pro instead of Pro Bio F, it is more designed for smaller setups. Pro Bio S being bacterial support, and NP Pro being fuel or carbon source. This in conjunction with Bio pellets should be ok. As with any system, test and monitor corals. Cheers!


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Old 05/11/2016, 06:11 PM   #5
chercm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaforest View Post
Hello,

Bio S - Nitryfying bacteria
Pro Bio S - Probiotic Bacteria

Pro Bio F - probiotic bacteria and food for bacteria

Pro F - growth media for bacteria
-NP Pro - liquid polymer - growth media for bacteria

For small tanks we Recommend to use Pro Bio F only.

For tank with Average numer of corals We recommend to use Pro Bio S and -NP Pro - If nitrate and phosphate are very high You can add Pro Bio F also.

Probiotic Reef Salt contains another Probiotic bacteria then Pro Bio F but I think that:
Probiotic Reef Salt+Pro Bio S+ -NP Pro it enough to keep nitrate and phosphate low.

Regards,
Aquaforest
For small tanks we Recommend to use Pro Bio F only.

no need for NP pro ?


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Old 05/12/2016, 02:56 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chercm View Post
For small tanks we Recommend to use Pro Bio F only.

no need for NP pro ?
Pro Bio F contains Probiotic bacteria and culture medium for them.
But of course it can use -NP Pro also.

Regards,
Aquaforest


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Old 05/12/2016, 11:05 PM   #7
teebone110
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Is there a benefit to seeding our tanks with the multiple types of denitrifying bacteria or does it all basically do the same thing? Can multiple strains survive long-term or will there be a dominant strain that will prevail?

Are you aware if the bacteria you provide through AF products are similar to those produced with bio-pellets?

Is running AF products a safer alternative to biopellets or can the AF supplements be used in the same way, i.e. Energy, Vitality, etc.

Sorry for all the questions, but I would like to know as your products seem to be working very well in my system so far.


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Old 05/13/2016, 04:48 AM   #8
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Hello,
Of course diversity of good bacteria is great, however it seems that the bacteria in the Probiotic salt and Pro Bio S are what most who are running the Probiotic system are doing, and having success keeping nutrients low. Added surface area with use of siporax or matrix seems to compliment these systems as well, as they are many times more efficient than live rock. Also the use of zeolites helps in further breakdown of nutrients if employed. Many are moving over to what we are now referring as the stacking method. The use of Zeomix, AF Carbon, and Phos Minus in one reactor, changed out every 4-6 weeks depending on your tank. I personally change every 4 weeks. It is hard to compare the bacteria bio-pellets, but I believe the carbon sources with NP Pro and Pro Bio F are composed of a polymer. I am not aware of the exact ingredients though. As far as safer goes, that is all in the hands of the user, as most problems we encounter are inherit to our husbandry. I believe the stacking method with AF products would give you a similar effect to running bio-pellets, the use of bacteria additions along side, with GFO and GAC, as many have to still use these products to keep both N&P low. By using the salt and the AF Probiotic lineup, with N&P staying low, you can use the Energy, Vitality, and Aminomix without the worry of raising nutrients. This method allows me to feed my hungry anthias multiple times per day with no real impact on N&P. I hope this answers your questions. Look over the userguide, it explains each product, and we will gladly help with any additional questions we can answer. What products from AF are you currently using?
Cheers!


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Old 05/13/2016, 12:22 PM   #9
teebone110
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Thanks again for the background, I really do appreciate your assistance.

In terms of my situation, I am running about 2-3 cups of bio-pellets on my system of about 250 total water volume. This is about half the amount that is recommended through BRS.

In regards of Aqua Forest products, a LFS received a full line shipment so I grabbed the following:

Pro Bio S
Pro Bio F

AF Amino Acids
AF Vitality
AF Build
AF Energy

I chose not to get the NP-Pro, but thinking that maybe I should get it too?
Since I am running bio-pellets I thought that this would suffice with producing a carbon source. Let me now your thoughts on this?

I went with the Pro Bio F because I was thinking that it would be beneficial to add another strain of bacteria into my system, and I thought I read within the directions that it suggests that it is fine to combine ProBio F with biopellets? I will likely discontinue the biopellets down the road

I have been following the dosing instructions with starting with half dosing, so it looks like this..

Pro Bio S 3 drops every day
Pro Bio F 2 spoons per day

AF Energy, Build, Amino Mix, Vitality - 2 drops, 3 times a week

Tank background..
Feeding NLS pellets in a feeder daily, with PE Mysis 1-2 cubes per day
Medium fish load, 100-150 lbs of live rock, 3 litres of siporax in sump
small fuge with various macro algae in sump
BK SM200 skimmer
GFO and Carbon in a dual reactor
ATI Sunpower 8x80w + 2 strips of RB LED supplement

So far been dosing over a week and colours and PE have improved. Overall appearance of corals are definelty better

I am using BRS 2 part, along with IO Salt changed 10% per week

Also have AF Component A,B,C that I will supplement weekly at half doses.

So, not exactly the full program- but I am hoping that this helps with any further guidance that you can provide. If you need more info please let me now



Last edited by teebone110; 05/13/2016 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 05/13/2016, 01:36 PM   #10
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Hello,
Thank you for the response Ok, to me I think you seem to have a great grasp for AF products, as well as your approach to running your tank, this is great If you are satisfied with test results for N&P running your current setup, by all means keep that program running. Please indicate your test results for N&P as well, it may be useful information. Once the siporax begins to seed, and if you add more, you may have no need for the AIO pellets, so the use of NP Pro in connection to Pro Bio S would replace the need. I still use Pro Bio F like once a week in place of NP Pro, I have seen no positive or negative effects, just using product up that likely will not be replaced. It seems that NP Pro and Pro Bio S would be the combo now and in the future. I would imagine you could let the pellets run, until they run out, and maybe down the road replace with Zeomix or with more siporax. I would do 1/2 doses, like you are now, and again monitor the tank, and test to see where your nutrients are at. I cannot stress enough to observe what is going on in the tank. As far as Vitality, Aminomix, Build, and Energy go, continue the use like you have and observe the corals. Sounds like you have a solid plan, look forward to seeing the results. I like that you are slowly working your way into the system, much better that than too much too quick
Cheers!


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Old 05/13/2016, 04:38 PM   #11
teebone110
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Hey Perry,

Once again, I appreciate the AF coaching tips!
I forgot to mention that my Nitrate was steady between 5-10ppm API and Salifert, Phosphates are 0.00 on Hanna checker for months before I started supplementing with the AF additives.

Siporax has been in the tank for about 3-4 months too.

After a week, Nitrates have dropped to below 5ppm and the macro algae in my huge is starting to brown up and die off - very interesting stuff in a very short time.

Corals are closely monitored for colour and PE, which has been slowly improving daily.

I do like the automation of biopellets without having to think about dosing the tank daily with supplements- but its the price to pay for an awesome colourful sps reef!


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Old 10/05/2016, 07:56 PM   #12
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I have a 15 gallon sumpless mixed reef which I would like to feed more. I run a aquatic life mini 115 skimmer inside of an aquaclear 70 I have zeomix in the AC70 as well as chemi pure blue. Im trying to keep things fairly simple and am wondering if I can dose PROBIO F only as well as heavy feeding of reef roids or coral frenzie. I believe probio f is both bacteria and food source in a powder form so I can dose by hand. The instructions says dose 1 spoon every day per 27 gallon. Dose it come with a spoon or is it a standard teaspoon? Should I dose half a spoon every day or a full spoon every other day. Can I over dose? Do I have to run a skimmer? Do I need to test N and P or just observe the tank.


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Old 10/11/2016, 04:47 AM   #13
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Yes,
You can use this but keep in mind it is pretty concentrated, so use as directed, in fact use 1/2 to start. It does come with a spoon for measuring, which is the same spoon used in Salifert test kits. I would use 1 spoon every 3 days to start, and take it from there. Yes you can over dose, likely cyano or bacteria bloom will occur, and yes run a skimmer and test for N&P and most importantly observe the conditions in the tank, as to decide to increase or decrease your dosing amounts as the tank settles in. Cheers


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Old 10/12/2016, 09:43 AM   #14
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thank you


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Old 10/19/2016, 11:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plyle02 View Post
Hello,
Of course diversity of good bacteria is great, however it seems that the bacteria in the Probiotic salt and Pro Bio S are what most who are running the Probiotic system are doing, and having success keeping nutrients low. Added surface area with use of siporax or matrix seems to compliment these systems as well, as they are many times more efficient than live rock. Also the use of zeolites helps in further breakdown of nutrients if employed. Many are moving over to what we are now referring as the stacking method. The use of Zeomix, AF Carbon, and Phos Minus in one reactor, changed out every 4-6 weeks depending on your tank. I personally change every 4 weeks. It is hard to compare the bacteria bio-pellets, but I believe the carbon sources with NP Pro and Pro Bio F are composed of a polymer. I am not aware of the exact ingredients though. As far as safer goes, that is all in the hands of the user, as most problems we encounter are inherit to our husbandry. I believe the stacking method with AF products would give you a similar effect to running bio-pellets, the use of bacteria additions along side, with GFO and GAC, as many have to still use these products to keep both N&P low. By using the salt and the AF Probiotic lineup, with N&P staying low, you can use the Energy, Vitality, and Aminomix without the worry of raising nutrients. This method allows me to feed my hungry anthias multiple times per day with no real impact on N&P. I hope this answers your questions. Look over the userguide, it explains each product, and we will gladly help with any additional questions we can answer. What products from AF are you currently using?
Cheers!
Interesting that you mention the Stacking concept.
What about if you have an Algae Scrubber (where does it fit into the Probiotic/-Pro NP, EXPORT stack)?
I just built a custom sump with an built-in Large Algae Scrubber section.
I did this since I initially used mini scrubber and was impressed with the amount of Algae the mini produced. If the algae I was removing from the scrubber was nutrients, nitrates & phosphates from the tank than great.
The new larger scrubber is basically larger capacity (so less often need to clean out). It compliments the skimmer in the system. I'm going to monitor how well is does, and currently in the process of setting up extra dosing pumps to convert from (ESV A/B), to (AquaForest Comp1+,2+,3+.) Probiotic salt with -NP Pro will be used on and off (for a Bio-S kind of booster shot) since I use the Probotic Salt it for another Mixed tank. This tank will be strictly SPS , so the goal will be to keep N & P much lower than my Zoa/LPS tank where higher nitrates tolerated, and with Zoa's even preferred.
I feel that with the Scrubber in my nutrient export stack, combined with Probotic Salt/-NP Pro, I can be a bit more aggressive with Fish Feeding, get more fish, and even start feeding the SPS corals some extra foods.


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Old 10/22/2016, 07:24 AM   #16
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Hi Wally,
It is a great concept in thought, and the idea could work. My only concern would be will the Probiotics(bac/carbon source) eventually pull nutrients so low that the algae scrubber might be out competed for nutrients? As far as the Component 123 is concerned, I think it would do well on a system with a scrubber as the iron additions would be great at fueling the growth of the algae, hence pulling nutrients really low. I am totally all for diversity and having different means of export, I would just question as to whether you might play the game of tug a war with two completely different means of nutrient removal. It never hurts to try, I think one day I will design a new system to incorporate a true refugium off the display, in hopes that the water from the display would fuel the growth of various macro algaes, whilst still running a probiotic system. We shall see, keep me posted as you move closer towards this setup Cheers!


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Old 11/04/2016, 05:24 PM   #17
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Is vinegar dosing an alternative to using NP pro? I am currently using Pro Bio S and have not used any carbon source yet, would using vinegar in place of NP Pro be ill advised?


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Old 11/06/2016, 08:22 AM   #18
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No, they are completely different carbon source, NP Pro is a liquid polymer.


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Old 11/06/2016, 09:42 AM   #19
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Different in a way that the bacteria in Pro bio S won't consume the carbon source from vinegar? Where I live NP pro isn't available yet so I thought I can try doing vinegar in it's place.


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Old 11/07/2016, 09:00 AM   #20
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This is too risky, in probiotic method in user manual it states not to use vodka, vinegar, or sugar. Should you choose to do this, you are doing so at your own risk, as there is no way to know proper dosing amounts. I suppose anything is possible, just use caution and very low amount should you choose to try, make sure to observe closely. Cheers


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Old 11/07/2016, 10:31 AM   #21
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Thank you for the warning. Where would I find that manual, all Aquaforest products i've purchased comes with minimal English instructions and have yet to see any warning regarding vinegar/vodka.

I went ahead and dosed 5ml vingar to my 80g SPS/LPS the past two days and today I noticed the SPS lightening up notably as well some of the algae has subsided.
I've been dosing Pro Bios S for over a month with Bio pellets running previously for over 3 months. I discounted Bio pellets a couple weeks after starting Pro Bio S and been waiting to get my hands on NP pro so in the mean time I thought to try vinegar, which I am using for the very first time.

Seeing the way the tank has reacted in just two dosages of 5ml vinegar in two days I 'll going to step back and reduce the dosage to 2ml per day. I am thinking the excess amount of bacteria I've been adding the past month (3 drops/day) reacted immediately to the vinegar and striped nutrients instantly over a few hours. Good that it's working but perhaps too clean and too rapid. With the drastic results I am seeing I will definitely play with the vinegar dosage to avoid catastrophic melt down.

In addition I've been using Component 123, E, V, and A , which will play a more important role now that nutrient levels are low. What I've seen in 3 days from adding vinegar has been night and day compare to what I've seen seen in months. Will continue with vinegar and Pro Bio S and see if the good results continues.


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Old 11/11/2016, 03:36 AM   #22
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http://online.fliphtml5.com/tezm/bbaq/#p=1
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Old 11/22/2016, 07:29 AM   #23
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hi guys,
im following these post and please, i have some questions too:

my tank is about 33g, AF since 5 weeks, 4 litres siporax, daily using

- 1 drop pro bios
- 2 drops np pro
- 1 drop bio f
- using zeomix and carbon

sometimes i'am using the normal bio s, 2 drops injecting in the siporax box to force the nitrification.

nitrate was fallen from 25 to 5 and now standing still. weekly water change 15% with pro biotic reef salt. phosphate is very low, 0 or maybe 0,01 with machery & nagel.

could it be help, to add 1 or 2 times weekly the pro bio f-powder to force the nitrification? the tank is 90% sps.

thanks & best regards
robert


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Old 11/22/2016, 03:19 PM   #24
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Yes, but alternate with NP Pro, as it is really a AIO carbon source, works well on nano tanks, Pro Bio F powder that is


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Old 11/23/2016, 02:58 AM   #25
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Thk u Perry! Changed today the NP Pro against the Pro Bio F-Powder! Let's see what happens ... :-)


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