Reef Central Online Community
Blue Zoo Aquatics

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > More Forums > RC Archives > Other Invertebrate Care
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

 
Thread Tools
Old 08/22/2001, 02:19 PM   #1
Planoi
Premium Member
 
Planoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
Posts: 850
Host Anemone & lighting

It is pretty much established that host Anemone need lots of light.

But I find "lots of light" quite subjective, I have been recommending most people over at my board to use either MH (for deeper tank) or PC (for shallower tank), and stay clear of NO.

However several people on my board are showing up saying that they are using about 5 NO bulbs (approx 200w) over a tank 2' high. Occasional feeding.

Unfortunately, they are keeping about 3 anemones in the tank (H.magnifica, H.crispa, S.haddoni) and are reporting great expansion and growth for all 3.

My question is, do you think this is an environment where the anemones will thrive (or survive)?

thanks,

Win


Planoi is offline  
Old 08/22/2001, 02:51 PM   #2
rshimek
Moved On
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 24,538
Hi Win,

As long as host anemones are well fed, virtually any light regime will do.

As they get progressively starved, they need brighter and more light.

However, anemones expand for a number of reasons and several of them are not good news. If those three anemones are being kept together in a tank, I would suggest that these animals are inflating as an aggressive posture, and are in less good health that might otherwise seem the case.

How long has this situation been going on?




rshimek is offline  
Old 08/23/2001, 04:20 AM   #3
Planoi
Premium Member
 
Planoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
Posts: 850
I have asked 2 members and this is the info.
Case 1:

Tank:180g, 2' high
Light: 4 NO (40 watt ea.)

H.magnifica - two - 6 months
H.crispa - 6 months
S.Haddoni - 2 months

Case 2:

Tank:180g, 2' high
Light: 5 NO (40 watt ea.)

E.quadricolor - 3 weeks
H.crispa - < 1months
S.Haddoni - 2 months

The member reported that the anemones has increasingly started to reject feeding, which he attribute to recieving sufficient lights - thus less dependent on feeding.


Planoi is offline  
Old 08/23/2001, 08:20 AM   #4
rshimek
Moved On
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 24,538
Hi Win,

The member reported that the anemones has increasingly started to reject feeding, which he attribute to recieving sufficient lights - thus less dependent on feeding.

Nope.... The anemones are starting to be significantly stressed because there are too many other potential aggressors in the tank. These animals will fight each other and these anemones in this small of a tank will most likely result in all of the anemones in each tank dying.

They always will feed, even in bright light, as this is there way of getting high quality food. They need to feed - there is no option. The light is used to give them supplemental nutrition when good food is not around. So, if they are not feeding, they are seriously disturbed and in trouble.




rshimek is offline  
Old 08/25/2001, 09:50 PM   #5
rayjay
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,969
I get puzzled by the "requirements" for anemones as much if not more than the others. Anyone visiting my web site knows that I use only NO lighting over all my tanks. I do use a lot of lights,(8) over my 90g reef, but they are all on timers, so all lights are on together for only two hours.
Dr Ron mentioned that when fed enough, strong lighting would not be necessary. However, I don't feed my Sebae directly at all. The tank gets fed only by the feedings of the fish twice daily.
I'm aware some of this food finds it's way to the anemone, but can't believe it's sufficient to negate the need for lighting.
I don't know the answers, but whatever is working has been working now for 7 1/2 years, the first 1 1/2 yrs were in a 30g with 4 NO's over the tank.
When I bought this creature, I had only the LFS employees for information until I bought a computer 2 1/2 yrs ago. I didn't know they were hard to keep or that they needed specific lighting or feeding.
I don't plan on tempting fate by getting another.


__________________
Seahorses. Culture nanno, rotifers and brine shrimp.

Current Tank Info: Seahorses
rayjay is offline  
Old 08/26/2001, 01:41 PM   #6
rshimek
Moved On
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 24,538
Quote:
Originally posted by rayjay
Hi,

.... I'm aware some of this food finds it's way to the anemone, but can't believe it's sufficient to negate the need for lighting.

It has to be or the animal will die.

All organisms are on an energy budget. Anemones can get income (nutrient energy) from a number of sources - direct feeding, indirect feeding (fish feces, drifting food, particulate material in the water (bacteria mostly)), some direct absorption of dissolved nutrients and zooxanthellae byproducts. Zoox byproducts are basically carbs only, so for growth the animal needs some sort of food.

All of the above sources have to sum to 100% of the needs for the organism to stay at status quo. Less, and it will shrink and my die. More and it grows, and may reproduce.

The fact that a lot of anemones die is reason enough to realize that most folks don't feed there systems enough. And... all the light in the world will not substitute for food if the animal doesn't have a nitrogen source for proteins.




rshimek is offline  
Old 08/26/2001, 04:08 PM   #7
rayjay
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,969
Thanks for your reply. The same must apply to my corals as well, as I don't feed them either.


__________________
Seahorses. Culture nanno, rotifers and brine shrimp.

Current Tank Info: Seahorses
rayjay is offline  
Old 08/27/2001, 08:18 AM   #8
rshimek
Moved On
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 24,538
Hi,

If they are growing they must be being fed. Probably particulate material from your tanks.

They would grow faster and be in better health if they were fed directly.




rshimek is offline  
Old 08/27/2001, 11:38 PM   #9
sir reefalot
Unregistered
 
Posts: n/a
Hi folks!

Not sure if I'm following this link correctly.
I'm assuming by the above statements.

Hypothetically....
That If I had only 1 NO tube running over a 50 gal(just enough to see the creature). As long as I kept a host anemone well fed. It would thrive...?

If this is true... Then how much would you need to feed the above said anemone to equal 100% of the organism needs.
More than common nutrient exports can compensate for?

Reason I ask this.... most the time I read about someone having an anemone. They are constantly flamed for not having enough light to meet these creatures needs. When in fact they may be starving them to death. While trying to sustain there diminish with inadequate light levels. Instead of spending lots of money on light they should be increasing their feedings. Am I hopeless or am I on the right path? Thanks for your time and patience!


 
Old 08/28/2001, 06:01 AM   #10
rshimek
Moved On
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 24,538
Quote:
Originally posted by sir reefalot
Hi

Hypothetically....
That If I had only 1 NO tube running over a 50 gal(just enough to see the creature). As long as I kept a host anemone well fed. It would thrive...?


Yes.

If this is true... Then how much would you need to feed the above said anemone to equal 100% of the organism needs.
More than common nutrient exports can compensate for?


This depends on both the type and quality of the food and the size of the anemone. They need a lot of food. To totally support an 5 inch diameter Entacmaea quadricolor by feeding, I would feed it the equivalent volume of a table spoon of Gamma Foods Lancefish (a higher quality fish food than, for example,
silversides) every other day. More food for bigger anemones such as the carpets and ritteris.

Instead of spending lots of money on light they should be increasing their feedings. Am I hopeless or am I on the right path?

Dead on!




rshimek is offline  
Old 08/28/2001, 11:10 AM   #11
Heath Man
Registered Member
 
Heath Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 55
Is there not a minimum amount of light needed, regardless of feeding? Surely one can't keep an E.Quad alive indefinitely in, say, a 90G with one NO strip light just by feeding heavily?


__________________
Heath

-----------------

They say money talks. Mine keeps saying, "Goodbye!"

Current Tank Info: 90G reef w/30G sump
Heath Man is offline  
Old 08/28/2001, 04:17 PM   #12
JasonD
Registered Member
 
JasonD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,079
HeathMan,

I would think that you need enough light to keep the zoothanthalle alive in the animal. With the algae the anenome will die.

Myself I have three 55 watt PC over my 45 gallon ritteri species tank and the animal is doing great.

I agree with Dr. Ron though that you have to feed the thing if you expect it to grow. Unfortunately it takes a little bit of time to get the anenome use to eating regularly since they seem to be starved during shipping. I think they have to adjust.

I think most people aren't successful with anenome's because they don't set up a specific environment for them. Try to make them live in a regular reef, and that can be tough to do with powerheads ready to eat them, and even some fish that will pick on them.

I love my Ritteri and couldn't imagine going without an anenome tank they are that cool.

Jason


JasonD is offline  
Old 08/29/2001, 08:34 AM   #13
rshimek
Moved On
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 24,538
Hi,

Folks, you are not listening!

The animal needs nutrition, how it gets it is immaterial.

Zooxanthellae basically provide carbohydrate nutrition to anemones and nothing more.

Feeding provides carbs and proteins. This is all the animal needs...

If they are feeding, you can keep all host anemones in absolute darkness until they are bleached whiter than sheets, and they will live just fine. As long as they are fed. The algae are immaterial to the host as long as it gets enough nutrition.




rshimek is offline  
Old 08/29/2001, 09:14 AM   #14
sir reefalot
Unregistered
 
Posts: n/a
Thnx Dr. Ron...

I think folks are really mislead on the lighting issue. That's why we seem so hard headed. I think you struck a very valid point. I am very interested in trying an anemone now. I think with your insight I may now be able to keep one that thrives!

Just think how dissappointing this hobby would become. If not for people like you setting us straight on issues like this. I think your doing a very great service for this hobby. I've worked for a pet store and know first hand how mislead folks can get.
Just wanted to take a moment to say
Thank you.


 
Old 08/29/2001, 09:47 AM   #15
mr9iron
15& Over Club
 
mr9iron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,552
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks for the information Dr Ron. This has cleared up all kinds of questions for me. I see an anemone in my future.


__________________
Vince
______________________________

Current Tank Info: Frag tank at the moment, planning another
mr9iron is offline  
Old 08/29/2001, 10:54 AM   #16
Erin
Registered Member
 
Erin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 130
Cool

Thanks for all the info Dr. Ron!! I'm so glad my little pale anemone can be happy and healthy.

Just a quick question. I know that your book says BTAs like krill, but I'm guessing I should be feeding a varied diet. I feed 3-5 1" krill every two to three days, after soaking them in Zoecon and Zoe for a few days. I just got some silversides last night to see if the anemone likes them. Any other suggestions?

Erin (*_*)


Erin is offline  
Old 08/29/2001, 11:58 AM   #17
JasonD
Registered Member
 
JasonD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,079
Thats real interesting;

I just naturally assumed that without enough light even with feedings the Anenome would die.

I wonder if the same would apply towards SPS's. If you fed your tank enough could you keep SPS's alive say with just NO bulbs?


Jason


JasonD is offline  
Old 08/29/2001, 02:01 PM   #18
Heath Man
Registered Member
 
Heath Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 55
I'm listening, and I understand what you're saying. As long as it gets its nutritional requirements met it will live. But here's what I'm asking, while its possible to feed it directly and get the caloric intake it needs, would the death of its symbiotic algae not cause stress or throw the animal off in other ways that would cause it to go off feed and eventually die? It seems odd to me that anemones have such a low long-term life span in captivity if the only thing they needed was adequate food. Dr. Fautin's study showed an abismal record of longevity in captive anemones.

I guess what I'm wanting to absolutely confirm is, aside from the caloric needs that can be met in other ways than the algae, would keeping an anemone in low light not lead to its premature death from stress? Would losing the algae and bleaching it white not stress the animal and cause it to start rejecting foods? Or do you maintain that lighting is completely irrelevant to the success in keeping anemones? If so, what would you say is the leading cause of death in captivity (feeding seems unlikely as most people seem to err on the side of overfeeding their inhabitants, IMO)?

Thank you for helping understand this, I've always been curious about it.


__________________
Heath

-----------------

They say money talks. Mine keeps saying, "Goodbye!"

Current Tank Info: 90G reef w/30G sump
Heath Man is offline  
Old 08/29/2001, 02:09 PM   #19
Erin
Registered Member
 
Erin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 130
Heath, I think Dr. Ron has already answered that.

He stated:

Quote:
Feeding provides carbs and proteins. This is all the animal needs...

If they are feeding, you can keep all host anemones in absolute darkness until they are bleached whiter than sheets, and they will live just fine. As long as they are fed. The algae are immaterial to the host as long as it gets enough nutrition.
I think we're just all feeling sceptical because we've heard/read so much about the importance of lighting and zooxanthellae, so we panic when we hear that all we need to do is feed them. It seems too easy.

Erin (*_*)


Erin is offline  
Old 08/29/2001, 06:00 PM   #20
rshimek
Moved On
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 24,538
Quote:
Originally posted by Heath Man
Hi,

...would the death of its symbiotic algae not cause stress or throw the animal off in other ways that would cause it to go off feed and eventually die?

No. It simply digests the algae.

It seems odd to me that anemones have such a low long-term life span in captivity if the only thing they needed was adequate food. Dr. Fautin's study showed an abismal record of longevity in captive anemones.

Daphne has not studied them in captivity. You might be referring the survey done by Joyce Wilkerson and analyzed by me.

It is no surprise they have short life spans in captivity. People simply don't feed the animals enough to keep them alive.

I guess what I'm wanting to absolutely confirm is, aside from the caloric needs that can be met in other ways than the algae, would keeping an anemone in low light not lead to its premature death from stress?

[size=huge]NO![/size]

Would losing the algae and bleaching it white not stress the animal and cause it to start rejecting foods?

[size=huge]NO![/size]

Or do you maintain that lighting is completely irrelevant to the success in keeping anemones?

Lighting is important if people don't feed them adequately. If they are adequately fed lighting is immaterial.

If so, what would you say is the leading cause of death in captivity (feeding seems unlikely as most people seem to err on the side of overfeeding their inhabitants, IMO)?

Your opinion is noted and wrong. These animals need a lot of food. A full grown ritteri to be growing and healty probably eats about the equivalent mass of a Big Mac every week or two.


rshimek is offline  
Old 08/30/2001, 06:12 AM   #21
billsreef
Moderator
10 & Over Club
 
billsreef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Long Island, NY/North Miami
Posts: 36,538
An interesting note on feeding quantities:
I always thought I fed my tanks on the heavy side, untill I found out how much food Ron puts into his tanks Than I felt like I was starving my critters


__________________
Bill

"LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi)

Current Tank Info: Far too many tanks according to my wife, LOL.
billsreef is offline  
Old 08/30/2001, 09:01 AM   #22
rshimek
Moved On
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 24,538
Quote:
Originally posted by billsreef
Hi Bill,

Than I felt like I was starving my critters

If that is the case, then you were...


rshimek is offline  
Old 08/30/2001, 12:31 PM   #23
Emmitt
Registered Member
 
Emmitt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Boston
Posts: 116
Dr. Shimek,

As others have noted, the general consensus in current reefkeeping literature on keeping clownfish host anemones almost always includes "intense lighting". (although I havn't read your book, yet.) So just a couple questions, please.

Are there any studies published (by you or anyone) that led to the finding that host anemones will thrive in low light environments provided they are fed sufficiently? That is, have any studies been done or are your assertions based on physiological knowledge of the animal.

I'm curious as to how one determines the health of an anemone once the zoox. has been used up by the animal since color is no longer an indicator. Since it can take months for an anemone to die, what is the longest you've seen one thrive without intense lighting?

I think it's fascinating that after all the flames (and genuine concern) on this and other boards about people keeping anemones in low lighting, that, come to find out, all they need is food.

Tia,


__________________
Emmitt

Current Tank Info: 90 gal. AG, 55 gal basement sump, 20 refugium. Mostly SPS, a couple LPS. Pair of A. Ocellaris, Royal Gramma, Yellow Tang.
Emmitt is offline  
Old 08/30/2001, 03:30 PM   #24
rshimek
Moved On
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 24,538
Quote:
Originally posted by Emmitt
Hi Tia,

Are there any studies published (by you or anyone) that led to the finding that host anemones will thrive in low light environments provided they are fed sufficiently? That is, have any studies been done or are your assertions based on physiological knowledge of the animal.

No specific studies with host anemones, however there are plenty of studies with other zooxanthellate anemones (including a very nice talk presented recently at MACNA). There is no reason to think that host anemones will react any differently to the lack of zoox than any other anemone.

There are plenty of anecodotal reports of bleached host anemones surviving for very long periods without ever getting any zooxanthellae back. Often one finds pure white "Sebae" anemones offered for sale. These animals will survive indefinitely and grow if fed well (I and others have kept them for well over a year - in my case I passed the anemone to another keeper when I left the firm where the anemone was in a display tank.). They do survive better in the average reefer's tanks if they "color up" with zoox, but survival in these situations still appears dependent upon feeding.

Along the same lines, I have an azooxanthellate Entacmaea quadricolor at the present time. I have it for six months and it is growing, and I expect that soon it will clone. It has not had zoox since I obtained it.

Finally, yes, some of this is based on my physiological knowledge of the animals as well as with discusssions with Dr. Daphne Fautin, who is probably the leading authority on these animals.

I'm curious as to how one determines the health of an anemone once the zoox. has been used up by the animal since color is no longer an indicator.

As with most invertebrates, I would suggest growth or reproduction is an effective indicator of health. An animal that is growing or periodically reproducing - either sexually or asexually - would be accepted by most researchers as being in good health.

Since it can take months for an anemone to die, what is the longest you've seen one thrive without intense lighting?

Personally about 18 months (but it was alive and well when I left the employ of the firm where it was).

I...come to find out, all they need is food.

All you have to do, is to think what the animal is getting from the zoox. As the presenter stated at MACNA, all the anemone gets is "candy bar nutrition." The animals cannot grow, or repair injury, or reproduce with such nutrition alone, as all of these processes require proteins made from some nitrogen source. All they can do is stay alive on their "candy bars."

To grow, to thrive, they need food.


One other point, and Tia, this is not directed specifically at you, so don't feel flamed.

Anemones are animals. All animals need to feed in some manner. Without appropriate food, [size=huge]EVERYTHING - EVERYTHING[/size] else is immaterial. Without appropriate food the animal dies, and all else is moot. It follows that the first rule when keeping animals is provide them with appropriate food. If they have some supplemental food source such as carbohydrates from zoox, that is all well and good, but it is only supplemental, and much more useful food must come from other sources.





Last edited by rshimek; 08/30/2001 at 03:36 PM.
rshimek is offline  
Old 08/30/2001, 03:34 PM   #25
Erin
Registered Member
 
Erin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 130
I don't think that's a very good analogy, Dr. Ron. After all, I live comfortably, and certainly grow, with just candy bars!!

Erin (*_*)


Erin is offline  
 

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:16 AM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2021 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.