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Old 09/07/2001, 12:33 PM   #51
JonR
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Ron,

Thanks, what sort of length Lancefish are you referring to, the ones I have are pretty big (around 1")

thanks,
Jon


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Old 09/07/2001, 02:04 PM   #52
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Jake - I think Dr. Shimek already answered your question. Quote by Dr. Shimek:

Quote:
I think that lighting is important to these animals in the real world for one reason. It allows them to get nutrition. If their nutrition needs are adequately met by feeding them, then I don't see any thing wrong with keeping them in an environment that has lower light intensity.
This issue is really rather simple but we seem intent on making it complicated.

Anemones, as does any life form, require a certain amount of energy to live, grow, and reproduce. Anemones can get this energy from multiple sources:

-source 1 is through feeding, which can be on a broad range of things, some microscopic.

-source 2 is from a symbiotic relationship with zooxanthellae within their tissues.

It's simple. If they get enough nutrition from source 1 then they don't need source 2.

Most people do not feed their anemones enough - I would venture to guess that most hobbiest grossly underestimate how much these critters can eat. In such situations strong light can help. However, the energy from photosynthesis is not sufficient enough for the animal to grow or repair tissues. (it's junk food - see the cotton candy analogy Dr. Shimek mentions) The anemone needs to feed for that. In fact, I believe the zoox itself needs nitrogen compounds from the host as well (nitrogen compounds are acquired only by "feeding").

I don't think Dr. Shimek is "recommending" any one keep an anemone in low light. He is mearly pointing out that it can be done if the animal is fed properly and can be quite healthy in such an environment.

Bottom line, you want a healthy anemone, feed it.

-Mike


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Old 09/07/2001, 03:09 PM   #53
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Quote:
Bottom line, you want a healthy anemone, feed it.
....and give it plenty of intense light. That is, if one of our primary objectives is to provide an environment as close to natural as possible.

This, after reading this post and others, is MHO.


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Old 09/07/2001, 03:55 PM   #54
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What about the feeding vs nutrient export issue?

My point was not to give Ron a hard time or to find out under what conditions anemone husbandry is possible.

I believe that you could keep an anemone alive in a dark state, but I think it would be a lot harder than keeping them in a lighted tank. I just want to make sure people don't start saying "I can keep an anemone in the dark cause Ron said so." I realize Ron did not state this but there are people out there that through lack of understanding or purposeful ignorance will say this. Due to Ron's stature in the hobby I just wanted him to restate his general reccommendations for Anemone husbandry so newbies don't go and get an underlit tank and throw an anemone in it claiming Ron said it was OK.
As I said in the previous post anemones are delicate animals that require specific water parameters and lots of food. Why take away a non-polluting source of food (intense light-zozanthelle) when it can be easily provided and helps with nutrient export (By stimulating algae growth).

I guess my point is their are many ways things can be done. One can keep an Anemone under many conditions, you can keep corols in a tank that is significantl cooler than the temperatures Ron suggests. However Ron suggests those temperatures because he feels they are optimal temperatures for corals to thrive. I would say that optimal conditions for host anemones would involve high lighting. I am fairly sure Ron would agree with me on this but I just think that it would be helpful for him to breifly state his reccommendations for optimal conditions to avoid confusion on what he is recommending and what he is stating is possible.


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Old 09/07/2001, 04:48 PM   #55
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Let me re-iterate: I am not suggesting/recommeding that you keep anemones in a dim environment. I keep mine under quite bright light conditions actually. But I am saying that it could be done and the anemones would do just fine as long as their energy needs were met in another manner. And I am also pointing out that strong light alone is not good enough to keep an anemone. They have to feed on something. Photosynthesis doesn't provide them with nutrients like nitrogen compounds and protiens that are required for healing, growing and re-producing.


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Old 09/07/2001, 04:58 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jake
Hi,

What about the feeding vs nutrient export issue?

What about it? You have nutrient export in all cases.

As I said in the previous post anemones are delicate animals that require specific water parameters and lots of food. Why take away a non-polluting source of food (intense light-zozanthelle) when it can be easily provided and helps with nutrient export (By stimulating algae growth).

Anemones are not any more delicate than any other animals, in fact, they are some of toughest animals going - given enough food and the right habitat.

Zooxanthellae are NOT a good food source. They don't provide complete nutrition! They provide energy in the form of sugars, but the animals need a source of raw materials to build tissues - proteins. Zoox can provide some proteins only if the anemones have eaten first. The anemones also can also make their own proteins simply by digesting their food. In either case they have to feed.

but I just think that it would be helpful for him to breifly state his reccommendations for optimal conditions to avoid confusion on what he is recommending and what he is stating is possible.

The optimal conditions will vary with the anemone species.

The animals need an approriate substrate.

Then they need to be fed well with an appropriate food.

They then will do best in moderate to bright light

They need full strength salinity water, other water parameters are less important.

Now.....

If their nutritional needs are met by feeding, then lighting becomes unimportant. It is possible to keep any zooxanthellate animal alive in the absence of light, however it is neither easy nor normal to do so. I don't recommend keeping these animals in dimly illuminated tanks. Nonetheless, it is possible to do so. Just because you can do such a thing, doesn't necessarily mean you should do such a thing.



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Old 09/07/2001, 05:02 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonR
Hi Jon,

what sort of length Lancefish are you referring to, the ones I have are pretty big (around 1")

I get them up to about 3" long. I try to dice them into 1/4 to 1/2 inch chunks, but often don't bother and just feed the whole things.




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Old 09/08/2001, 01:00 AM   #58
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Excellent. Now that every newcomer to the hobby is going to keep anemones in the dark like mushrooms with an NO striplight, NSW and frozen lancefish let's at least ask them to act responsibly and buy captive raised so they don't deplete the ocean of these beautiful creatures.

~Alice


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Old 09/08/2001, 12:04 PM   #59
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Alice, I don't think you're understanding. 1M anemones are brought in and die each year to be replaced by a new 1M. The postulate is they're dying because they're not fed and attempted to be kept in "light" (let's assume 'bright').

If people feed w/ no light, they may have a dog ugly anemone, but it'll live.

I think you've very much missed the point of this long thread.

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Old 09/08/2001, 12:22 PM   #60
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Hi Matthew;

No, I don't think I missed the point. I think I'm just looking at it from a different angle.

I'm all for feeding; I'm a Mom, I feed everything impartially and probably sometimes more than is good for them The kids, their friends, my husband, my cat, stray dogs and my tanks. If feeding them is all it takes to keep anemones alive, boy howdy, I'll be the first one doing the happy dance but I still feel you have to view the situation with an eye to conservation. I'd also like to see some hard and fast research that backs it up but I know that all takes time. probably more time that most anemones are allotted in captivity.

~Alice


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Old 09/08/2001, 01:34 PM   #61
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Quote:
I'm all for feeding; I'm a Mom, I feed everything impartially and probably sometimes more than is good for them The kids, their friends, my husband, my cat, stray dogs and my tanks. If feeding them is all it takes to keep anemones alive, boy howdy, I'll be the first one doing the happy dance but I still feel you have to view the situation with an eye to conservation.
That's the whole point that Ron's been trying to make. Feeding is all that it takes to keep anemones alive. According to Ron in this thread, do your happy dance. That's precisely why I felt you were missing what Ron was saying. I don't understand what angle you're coming from if you don't agree with his assertion.

Quote:
I'd also like to see some hard and fast research that backs it up but I know that all takes time. probably more time that most anemones are allotted in captivity.
I'll let Ron address this point.

Cheers,
Matthew


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Old 09/09/2001, 04:21 AM   #62
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Hi Doc,
I'm curious about something I read. Maybe you can help me?
How does an anemone utilize lipid(s)? I have not heard this term used with an anemone before.

"It has been shown that light has a direct relationship with lipid content in the anemone's tissues indicating that sufficient light leads to a healthy anemone (Harland et al, 1992)."

side note: I notice the operative word, "indicating", guess they haven't spoken to Dr. Ron yet!



 
Old 09/09/2001, 01:05 PM   #63
rshimek
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Quote:
Originally posted by sir reefalot
Hi

How does an anemone utilize lipid(s)? I have not heard this term used with an anemone before.

Every animal uses fats (lipids) to some degree.

"It has been shown that light has a direct relationship with lipid content in the anemone's tissues indicating that sufficient light leads to a healthy anemone (Harland et al, 1992)."

In the context of the quote it is impossible to how the lipids are being used, and just why the statement is made. My suspicion in this case would be that the lipids they were measuring might be produced by zoox, and therefore have a correlation with light intensity. The same or similar lipids should be available from food, but may not be. Also the way the statement is phrased, indicates a correlation rather than an experimental results, and correlations do not imply causation.




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Old 09/09/2001, 01:15 PM   #64
rshimek
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alice
Hi Alice,

I'd also like to see some hard and fast research that backs it up but I know that all takes time. probably more time that most anemones are allotted in captivity.

As I said earlier in the thread, there simply is NO physiological research on these particular anemones. For information on them you have to rely on other anemone/zooxanthellae systems and extrapolate to these particular animals. I don't see any reason why these animals should be significantly different in their physiology than the anemones that have been studied, but it could be possible. Until it is shown that they are different however, I would apply what we know from other anemones to them.

As for hard and fast research about this topic, here are few citations from my data base and they should get you started on this if you wish.

Berner, T., G. Baghdasarian and L. Muscatine. 1993. Repopulation of a sea anemone with symbiotic dinoflagellates: Analysis by in vivo fluorescence. Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology. 170:145-158.

Brand, D. D., R. S. Blanquet and M. A. Phelan. 1993. Collagenaceous, thiol-containing proteins of cnidarian nematocysts: A comparison of the chemistry and protein distribution patterns in two types of cnidae. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology B Comparative Biochemistry. 106:115-124.

Engelbretson, H. P. and P. G. Muller. 1999. Translocation of photosynthetic carbon from two algal symbionts to the sea anemone Anthopleura elegantissima. Biological Bulletin (Woods Hole). 197:72-81.

Gates, R. D., K. Y. Bil and L. Muscatine. 1999. The influence of an anthozoan "host factor" on the physiology of a symbiotic dinoflagellate. Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology. 232:241-259.

Herndl, G. J. and B. Velimirov. 1986. Role of bacteria in the gastral cavity of Anthozoa. Ifremer (Institut Francais De Recherche Pour L'Exploitation De La Mer) Actes. Colloques:407-414,illustr.

Muller, P. G., K. W. Lee and C. B. Cook. 1996. Changes in the ultrastructure of symbiotic Zooxanthellae (Symbiodinium sp., Dinophyceae) in fed and starved sea anemones maintained under high and low light. Journal of Phycology. 32:987-994.

Saunders, B. K. and G. Muller-Parker. 1997. The effects of temperature and light on two algal populations in the temperate sea anemone Anthopleura elegantissima (Brandt, 1835). Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology. 211:213-224.

Steen, R. G. 1988. The bioenergetics of symbiotic sea anemoness (Anthozoa: Actinaria). Symbiosis. 5:103-142.

Steen, R. G. 1986. Impact of symbiotic phosphorus-31 algae on sea anemone metabolism: Analysis by in vivo phosphorus-31 NMR spectroscopy. Journal of Experimental Zoology. 240:315-326.

Stochaj, W. R. and A. R. Grossman. 1997. Differences in the protein profiles of cultured and endosymbiotic Symbiodinium sp. (Pyrrophyta) from the anemone Aiptasia pallida (Anthozoa). Journal of Phycology. 33:44-53.

Swanson, R. and O. Hoegh-Guldberg. 1998. Amino acid synthesis in the symbiotic sea anemone Aiptasia pulchella. Marine Biology (Berlin). 131:83-93.

Wang, J. T. and A. E. Douglas. 1998. Nitrogen recycling or nitrogen conservation in an alga-invertebrate symbiosis? Journal of Experimental Biology. 201:2445-2453.

Weis, V. M. 1993. Effect of dissolved inorganic carbon concentration on the photosynthesis of the symbiotic sea anemone Aiptasia pulchella Carlgren: Role of carbonic anhydrase. Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology. 174:209-225.

Zamer, W. E. and J. M. Schick. 1987. Physiological energetics of the intertidal sea anemone Anthopleura elegantissima: II. Energy balance. Marine Biology (Berlin). 93:481-492.


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Old 09/09/2001, 02:52 PM   #65
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Exclamation

Hello,

The quote was taken somewhat out of context.

Chin, Hsin and Milano only touched on nutritional aspects as peripheral to their actual focus: the ability of anemones to adjust their bodies' drag coefficients in the face of changing water velocities. They did not attempt to dissociate feeding from the requirements of a stereotypical anemone. Here is a fuller and fairer quote (emphases mine), and please note the ending sentence:


"...It has been shown that light has a direct relationship with lipid content in the anemone's tissues indicating that sufficient light leads to a healthy anemone (Harland et al, 1992). The light should give 3 to 5 watts per gallon of water. The lights should also be 50 % actinic and 50% full spectrums (Henderson, 1996). The flow tank also requires the same conditions as the holding tank but it does not need a light source since the sea anemone is only held there temporarily for testing. Finally, the anemones must be fed brine shrimp approximately three times a week (Henderson, 1996)."

I do not think Alice was dissociating feeding from the requirements of aquarium-ornamental anemones! I hope I have shown that Chin et. al. weren't either. What is clear to me is that while no one here questions the value of ingested nutrition, such anemones do still remain a proposition for the experienced, or at least conscientiously well-informed hobbyist:

There are also issues above and beyond nutrition that determine health for a captive anemone, including water quality (including temperature), water volume and movement, substrate composition, and above all, tank companions (a VERY tricky matter), that have to be addressed.

I would thus interpret Alice's post simply as a heads-up:
there is still a need to provide caveats regarding anemone husbandry

.... otherwise people may obtain the simplistic impression that
"Feeding is all that it takes to keep anemones alive".

I believe Matthew stated the above in the context of his experience, but we have to take account of the mass of inexperience reading these threads for guidance, and speak with more caution.




horge


PS: If anyone wants to obtain that lipid study cited by Chin et. al., here's the full proper cite: Harland, A.D., L.M. Fixter, P. Spencer Davies, R.A. Anderson. Effect of Light On The Total Lipid Content and the Storage Lipids of the Symbiotic Sea Anemone Anemonia Viridis. Marine Biology. Springer International. v112 1992. p253-258.

Happy hunting.

PPS: Just as Ron has indicated, there is a degree of presently-unavoidable risk in extrapolating from temperate or non-ornamental species towards the more familiar ornamentals that I presume we're talking about. After all, if I were to take certain Aiptasia spp. as models (and tropical ones to boot!) I'd be supremely confident of my chances at host-anemone husbandry

Alice craves proper studies on the appropriate, relevant species.. Like, who here doesn't?




Last edited by horge; 09/09/2001 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 09/10/2001, 02:15 PM   #66
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Whoops, double post! Disregard this one.



Last edited by tres; 09/10/2001 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 09/10/2001, 02:15 PM   #67
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Based on the info, I want to draw the conclusion that this line of thinking holds true for reef building corals as well. Dr. Ron, is it true that with the physiological similarities between anemonies and reef building corals, corals need much more than lighting to grow? Would you go so far as to say that intense lighting could drop down a notch or two on a scale of importance and feeding could move up? I've wondered about people saying they have corals growing under what many would consider to be sub-par (pun intended) lighting conditions. Maybe they're meeting the corals nutritional needs more through feeding. Am I all wet here?


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Old 09/10/2001, 08:57 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by tres
Hi Tres,

Dr. Ron, is it true that with the physiological similarities between anemonies and reef building corals, corals need much more than lighting to grow?

Of course, even under the best of lighting conditions corals require either feeding (on macro or micro plankton) or dissolved nutrients grow. Most appear to get the raw materials for growth from feeding, while much of their day to day energy needs are met zoox. Unlike anemones, zoox also facilitate the deposition of skeleton, so corals generally need a lot more light than to the anemones, however they also need a lot of food.

Would you go so far as to say that intense lighting could drop down a notch or two on a scale of importance and feeding could move up?

I would say feeding and lighting should be about equivalent in importance. One provides the energy, the other the materials for growth.


I've wondered about people saying they have corals growing under what many would consider to be sub-par (pun intended) lighting conditions. Maybe they're meeting the corals nutritional needs more through feeding. Am I all wet here?

No you are not "all wet." Probably you are right on target.




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Old 09/14/2001, 03:10 AM   #69
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The proof is in the pudding

Actually, if the proof is in the pudding, my tank is proof of what he's talking about. I have two E. Quads and if my memory serves I've had one at least two years. Coincidently, the NO FL lights I have on the tank have been there about the same amount of time -- or longer. Sorry, the older I get the more I lose track of time -- it just all runs together.

Specifically, I have 6 NO FL lights over a 29gal tank with the bulbs being at least two years old. That's 4 watts/gal of very old FL lighting and my primary anemone has exhibited fantastic growth over these years and is doing very well. Fully expanded the anemone is about 10 inches across and a brownish green which means it still has its algae intact. I feed it a piece of home made food about the size of a small super ball twice a week and it would eat more if I fed it though not much more I've noticed.

My smaller anemone (also E. Quad) is only about a year old and about three inches across. I purchased it about a year ago and it promptly crawled into the entrance of a cave with little light. Because of the location with limited light, the animal has bleached to a very white color. The animal continues to grow and survive despite the fact that I have difficulty feeding it also due to it's location. I can only assume my smaller tomato clowns which tends the animal feeds it when I'm not looking.

FWIW

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