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Old 02/26/2020, 09:01 PM   #1276
Michael Hoaster
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I got my new plants today. Another excellent order from live-plants.com. Decided to remove as much unwanted algae as possible from the seagrass bed beforehand. The codium and tufted joint algae went in after. It looks pretty good. The codium is very dark. I suspect it will lighten up over time, but we'll see. I'm not sure I have a nice, natural-looking arrangement yet, but I'll try not to disturb them. I'll get pics shortly.


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Old 02/27/2020, 07:10 AM   #1277
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Old 02/27/2020, 07:23 AM   #1278
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Wow Michael, I love it. I think it looks amazingly natural and yet so beautiful. Your tank is really inspiring me to get to work on moving my system in that direction now that I am ending an era keeping seahorses.


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Current Tank Info: A 56 gallon high nutrient macro algae/coral reef that overflows into a basement 30 gallon seahorse macro algae fuge that overflows into a 20 gallon sump
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Old 02/27/2020, 07:39 AM   #1279
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Thanks Dawn! I like the new plants. They do add to the natural look. Plus they are pretty unique looking, and add more green color to the mix. Hopefully they will thrive.


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Old 02/27/2020, 07:51 AM   #1280
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Good luck with them. I too have found the green macro algae more challenging than the red.


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Current Tank Info: A 56 gallon high nutrient macro algae/coral reef that overflows into a basement 30 gallon seahorse macro algae fuge that overflows into a 20 gallon sump
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Old 02/27/2020, 10:44 PM   #1281
Michael Hoaster
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I had the Codium before and it did well for me but faded in summer. I've also kept the tufted joint before in v1. It did well but it got overgrown by other macros easily.

Speaking of challenging greens, the turtle weed is still doing well, since I moved the whole rock up into a hole in the back wall. It looks able to stand very bright light, because it's pretty high up.

It's been fun, being selective and getting the specific plants I like. It feels like the vision for this tank is approaching reality. WOO!


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Old 02/28/2020, 12:37 AM   #1282
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OK Steve, so I watched the whole video, "All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace - Episode 2 - The Use and Abuse of Vegetational Concepts". What did I think of it? I probably should take more time to digest it but I'll go ahead and take a stab at it.

One thing I found interesting was that the idea of Nature balancing itself became a sort of doctrine of underlying order, that was accepted without proof. "It was like the air", one scientist said. They just believed it. I think they got a lot of things right, like how different elements interrelate. But science got short circuited by feel-good concepts advanced by a few egotistical, charismatic scientists. Overall, the ideas were more idealistic and simplified than reality. A self-correcting, self-balancing Nature is a warm, fuzzy idea. It was depressing to see politicians abuse it to oppress populations. Also, I found the idea of 'Spaceship Earth' not far from my own ideas that Earth is like a very large aquarium!

Overall, I think it illustrates the folly of man, and a slice of time in scientific history. It's easy and perhaps unfair to criticize ideas of the past. What will future man think of our accepted scientific norms?

How does it relate to aquariums? I'm not sure, but I'll throw out some thoughts. We all try to reach balance in our tanks. But balance is in the eye of the beholder. A tank full of hair algae could be said to be in balance. So what we're really after is an idyllic model that stays in our own version of an idyllic state. But balance and perfection is fleeting. I have noted a few times in my aquarium-keeping history when my tank has 'peaked', and thought, "well it's all down hill from here." And it was! So, are all aquariums doomed to fail? I don't think so, but they will always need upkeep to maintain the ideal.

Scrubber steve, I'd like to hear your thoughts. Why did you post the vid? What point would you make that it supports?

I'd also like to hear from anyone else who watched it, and would like to weigh in.
Hey Michael;
I was prompted to post the vid by your oft mentioned “creating a natural ecosystem” & your intention of using the least amount of technology possible. Nothing wrong with that at all.

I found the vid interesting & thought you might too. I thought your analysis of it was spot on. The manufacturing of a theory to describe natural processes and the invention of the word ecosystem along with it, by corrupt scientists & engineers for personal gain. And then the misuse of the concept by whoever, including politicians (club of Rome).

The influence of this ill-gotten proposition that nature works like a machine, that there is a self-correcting balance, that nature’s course can be accurately predicted, & projected as a result of cause & affect - feedback perturbations.

It was the catalysis for theories such as Gaia. It created the concept that nature is weak & fragile, & that the Earth needing saving. And it was the beginning of what I call unhealthy Earth worshipping.

The same tactics are used today. Especially computer modelling for predictions of future natural physical states. The vid showed how Van Dyne’s model of a simple Colorado grassland became less able to be accurately simulated as more data was added. Supposed feedback loops that were inventions.
Van Dyne’s data was accurate as possible, not arbitrary. That, & his lack of intentional manipulation were his model's downfall. That & Chaos is unpredictable.

Your tanks looking great & you’ve done a great job on it by the way.

cheers

steve


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Old 02/28/2020, 11:10 AM   #1283
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Thanks Steve. It was definitely thought-provoking. I do enjoy the discussion! There's some interesting (new?) ideas about top predators and keystone species, and their previously unrealized influences on ecosystems, both on land and in the sea. The reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone illustrates what scientists call trophic cascade. It's amazing how quickly things changed. Here's a short video:

https://www.yellowstonepark.com/thin...nges-ecosystem

Thanks for the compliment on my tank. It's kind of an evolution of ideas I got from different books like Adey and Loveland's "Dynamic Aquaria", Tyree's "Environmental Gradient", and Walstad's "Ecology of the Planted Tank".

You may be amused to hear that this tank was originally an algae-scrubbed reef tank, about 17 years ago. Remember the Eco-Wheel? Yeah, I didn't think so. It was a large rotating paddle wheel design, driven by air bubbles. It worked OK, but it didn't generate the kind of surge and current I had hoped for. I had only modest success.

I'm much happier with this marine planted tank. It suits me better, and I like doing something different.


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Old 02/28/2020, 01:55 PM   #1284
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You may be amused to hear that this tank was originally an algae-scrubbed reef tank, about 17 years ago.

Remember the Eco-Wheel? Yeah, I didn't think so.
Yes can remember the wheel, but not particularly familiar with them. Didn't remember them incorporating the scrubber part, more a nitrifying filter?
Couldn't imagine them as effective as an algae filter.

Thanks for the vid link.


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Old 02/28/2020, 04:03 PM   #1285
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No, it was an actual scrubber, with a large CFL fixture on top. You may be thinking of the hang-on filters that incorporated a rotating, nitrifying filter on top.

Anyway, it worked OK, but I wasn't able to get the advertised flow characteristics. It perhaps led me down the direction I'm going these days.


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Old 02/28/2020, 05:06 PM   #1286
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No, it was an actual scrubber, with a large CFL fixture on top. You may be thinking of the hang-on filters that incorporated a rotating, nitrifying filter on top.

Anyway, it worked OK, but I wasn't able to get the advertised flow characteristics. It perhaps led me down the direction I'm going these days.
Ok, can't say I remember seeing one, & can't find a lot about them on the net.

What year were they around, & did they become popular?


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Old 02/28/2020, 05:18 PM   #1287
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Early 2000s. They never became popular. Too expensive I think. You had to buy the whole system, including the tank. I found very few images in a google search. And if you don't know what to look for… Anyway, it was an early scrubber design that impressed me enough to buy one.


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Old 02/28/2020, 06:30 PM   #1288
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Early 2000s. They never became popular. Too expensive I think. You had to buy the whole system, including the tank. I found very few images in a google search. And if you don't know what to look for… Anyway, it was an early scrubber design that impressed me enough to buy one.
I was in an aquarium hiatus at that time. They wouldn't have been available in australia anyway.


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Old 02/28/2020, 06:34 PM   #1289
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What type of algae are those thick limbed ones Michael. I like them




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Old 02/28/2020, 09:01 PM   #1290
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That's Codium. Cool huh?


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Old 02/29/2020, 02:51 AM   #1291
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That's Codium.
Just looked it up; also known commonly as
green sea fingers,
dead man's fingers,
felty fingers,
forked felt-alga,
stag seaweed,
sponge seaweed,
green sponge,
green fleece,
and
oyster thief.

Crikey, flip a coin.


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Old 02/29/2020, 03:07 AM   #1292
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Cool Facts
" A clump of dead man's fingers is all one cell! "

Does that make it a micro-algae ?

" Codium fragile subspecies tomentosoides is the most invasive seaweed in the world, and it is believed to be native to Japan and was then unintentionally spread around the world. "

Looks exactly like what you have Michael ? Is it fast growing?


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Old 02/29/2020, 06:20 AM   #1293
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I've heard of dead man's fingers, and that about it. No, it's a macro algae. I think all macros are considered one cell. It can grow pretty fast, if conditions are ideal, but generally, it doesn't, in my experience. I probably haven't cracked the code on ideal conditions for them yet. A lot of macros are very opportunistic in Nature, growing rapidly in estuaries, after heavy rains, when runoff brings a surge in nutrients. Ulva in particular does this, which is why it's so handy in aquariums. It's hard to imagine it being more invasive than caulerpa, but I suppose, in certain waters it could be.


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Old 02/29/2020, 12:38 PM   #1294
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That there are so many names, would suggest it is widespread, and is called something different in a lot of different locations. I imagine there are several species, as I've seen different phenotypes on different sites.

That's codium in my avatar pic, by the way. Your avatar image kinda looks like it too!


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Old 02/29/2020, 04:06 PM   #1295
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.

That's codium in my avatar pic, by the way. Your avatar image kinda looks like it too!
Not intentional, just a freehand sketch using Office Paint.

It's an original,,, (blushing) LOL


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Old 03/03/2020, 09:22 PM   #1296
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I ordered another plant. It's a small frag of ulva intestinalis, or something in the family. The vender labeled it Grass Lettuce. It looks close to what Scrubber_steve has in his scrubber. I'll probably put it up on the back wall, close to the top. It should enjoy the high light. Also I think it will shade some of the wall, like an overhang. If all goes well, it'll grow and multiply, so I can play around with placement. It looks to be another plant that moves well in the current. It should be here in a couple days. It may be the last green plant I add.

I moved the large string of pearls plant a little further away from the metal halide. I think it got a little too much light. It's boom or bust with that plant! The Dictoya plant I've been diligently removing looks to be staying around. Rather than constantly pruning it, I think I'll let it grow out a little and harvest larger clumps. It's kind of pretty with a blue iridescence. Another color and texture for the wall.

The red grapes plants look a bit ragged. I may prune them way down, to start them over. I may prune some others on the patch reef too. I don't like it getting too bushy.

The gardening continues. The manatee grass is doing well. I'm just waiting now for a spring growth spurt.


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Old 03/03/2020, 11:11 PM   #1297
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I ordered another plant. It's a small frag of ulva intestinalis, or something in the family. The vender labeled it Grass Lettuce. It looks close to what Scrubber_steve has in his scrubber.
Good luck with it... after it matured on my scrubber screen the green & Brown hair algae I had, along with the Cyrano all disappeared.
Hopefully it doesn't do the same to your ornamental grasses & algae.


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Old 03/04/2020, 06:57 AM   #1298
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I've had Ulva in my tank since day one, so I'm not expecting any big changes after introducing this one. There are a few algae in there I wouldn't mind losing…

It's definitely a nutrient 'piggy'. This not being a reef tank means I keep nutrient levels much higher. As plant biomass increases, I increase nutrient dosing. It's more 'mouths to feed', not unlike adding fish.


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Old 03/04/2020, 04:53 PM   #1299
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I've had Ulva in my tank since day one, so I'm not expecting any big changes after introducing this one. There are a few algae in there I wouldn't mind losing…

It's definitely a nutrient 'piggy'. This not being a reef tank means I keep nutrient levels much higher. As plant biomass increases, I increase nutrient dosing. It's more 'mouths to feed', not unlike adding fish.
You have lettuce Ulva, has that spread much, or do your fish eat it?


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Old 03/04/2020, 05:07 PM   #1300
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I've had varying amounts of Ulva, depending on conditions. I don't currently have any fish that eat it, but the pods and snails eat a little. It does spread around the tank occasionally. If it gets to be too much, it's very easy to remove, so it's a great export medium. I usually prune/export every weekend, and often some of it gets removed then. I imagine one tang would wipe it out within a day.

Have you fed any of your scrubber intestinalis to your fish?


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